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Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by mleonhard on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @05:02PM (#26717350)
Wuffs touts its lack of memory allocation as a safety feature [0]. Rust could add a `#![forbid(alloc)]` declaration and achieve the same effect. I think this would be a good idea.

Wuffs types are not parameterized with lifetimes, so they may contain references only to items with static lifetime. This means that Wuffs cannot implement linked lists, hash tables, or other common data structures. To support those structures, Wuffs will need to either add lifetime parameters and a borrow-checker (like Rust) or add reference counting (like Rust `Arc`, C++ `shared_ptr`, Golang, Java, etc).

[0] https://github.com/google/wuffs/blob/v0.3.0-beta.1/doc/note/...

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by Jweb_Guru on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @12:23AM (#26720583)
That is true, but on the other hand, Wuffles allows safe unchecked array indexing, which is a very hard problem that Rust doesn't attempt to tackle--in part because it spends most of its complexity budget on the borrow checker! I for one would be extremely interested in using Wuffles in the inner loop of many routines I currently write in Rust which are performance critical, and for which I know bounds checking is hurting performance (sometimes in ways it's hard to convince LLVM to remove), but for which I can't justify the use of `unsafe`. I would particularly love it as an embedded language, rather than one needing a full-blown application.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by volta83 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:10AM (#26721748)
Generational indices allow safe unchecked array indexing in Rust.

There are many papers that cover how to do this, starting with Alexis Beissegners thesis, up to the latest Rust belt project paper on GhostCell.

There are also many libraries implementing this, so that you don't have to do it yourself.

In practice, however, like the Wuffs project says, most code doesn't care about this. You only need this for very specific types of code, but if you need it, you have it in Rust.

---

On the other hand, I've asked above what happens if you try to open a png that doesn't fit in RAM, like one of those huge space photos that are >1 Tb in size.

Firefox just handles these fine, rendering only the part of the picture that you are looking at, using level of detail, etc.

This Wuff example assumes that you have enough RAM to decode the whole image at once, which is something that widely-used libraries are not allowed to assume, because they must support from embedded systems with little RAM up to absurdly huge images of our universe.

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by Gaelan on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:40AM (#26721208)
> I would particularly love it as an embedded language, rather than one needing a full-blown application.

Given the existence of [0], I imagine this is doable.

[0]: https://docs.rs/inline-python/0.6.0/inline_python/

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by mckirk on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:45AM (#26722486)
That inline Python is the closest thing to black magic I've seen in a while. I guess I have to find an excuse to play around with Rust some time soon, it seems like such a cool ecosystem.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by iudqnolq on Friday April 09, 2021 @10:48AM (#26751220)
If you like that sort of thing you'll enjoy following the creater on twitter. Here's another of her creations

> Did you know you can just fork() the @rustlang compiler from your proc_macro?

> Unfortunately rustc is multithreaded and fork() only forks one thread. We'll just assume the other threads weren't doing anything important.

> In today's rustc, this means we're only missing the main thread in the fork. But that one was only going to call exit() after joining our thread anyway, so not very important. It just means the process always exits with a success status. So instead we grep the output for "error".

https://mobile.twitter.com/m_ou_se/status/136884418660735795...

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by pipeep on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:20PM (#26718091)
> Rust could add a `#![forbid(alloc)]` declaration and achieve the same effect.

Isn't that pretty much what `#![no_std]` is for? You can still use an allocator with no_std, but you have to explicitly import it.

https://docs.rust-embedded.org/book/intro/no-std.html

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by saagarjha on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @08:36PM (#26719137)
It seeems like Wuffs is not really designed to support dynamic memory allocation at all, which is typical for usecases like oneshot parsers.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by marius_k on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:12PM (#26718009)
As I understand wuffs goal is to be good enough for parsers coders decoders. It looks like they can still achieve that by sacrificing some of the nice features of other languages.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by nynx on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:21PM (#26718104)
Rust already has a "mode" that forbids allocations: no-std without the alloc crate.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by Karliss on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:16AM (#26721779)
Goals and Non-Goals explain that wuffs is not a general purpose programming language. If all the allocations are done by code invoking the function implemented in wuffs there is no point analyzing lifetimes. For the intended usecase lifetime of the objects and their lifetimes fall into following categories:

* input buffer -> prepared by caller, must live as long as you are decoding it

* output buffer -> prepared by caller, must live as long decoder outputs to it

* fixed size decoder state -> allocated during initialization

* decoder state with size depending on input -> various compression formats formats typically include information about expected sizes, used dictionary sizes and similar so that required memory for it can be allocated ahead of time. You don't want memory allocations during the hot loop anyway. And if it turns out that content doesn't match sizes from header it's an invalid file.

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by flohofwoe on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:24AM (#26724545)
IMHO if Rust had a "proper" way to transpile to C, then a "C-style subset" of Rust would be a perfect library-implementation language and something like Wuff wouldn't be needed.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by amenghra on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @07:20PM (#26718573)
Go & Java don't do reference counting. They have a GC instead.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by pjmlp on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:17AM (#26723727)
Wrong, reference counting is a GC algorithm, and both language specifications don't state what exact algorithm is to be implemented.

In fact there are tons of GC implementations across all Java implementations, including reference counting.

For example, "An on-the-fly reference-counting garbage collector for java"

https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1111596.1111597

And here is one for Go.

https://github.com/sendilkumarn/gopurerc

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by pjmlp on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:14AM (#26723699)
MISRA-C(++), Ada/SPARK also forbid it, yet they are there powering lots of embedded systems, there is a lot of stuff that can still be implemented with such restrictions.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by andrepd on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @05:46PM (#26717770)
Isn't that stupidly limiting?
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by dahart on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @12:25AM (#26720587)
Some people consider avoiding heap allocations to be smartly limiting. ;) It’s not really that limiting either, when you learn the techniques for it.

There’s a famous list of NASA’s rules for safety-critical code that you’ll see pop up now and then, that subscribes to the “avoid heap memory allocation” philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_10:_Rules_for_Dev...

It’s not nearly as true anymore today, but working in console games 10-20 years ago, it was very common to try to avoid dynamic memory allocation because it was viewed as slow, unsafe, and unnecessary. A common strategy was to statically pre-allocate a single block of the worst-case memory needed for a given feature, because you need to be prepared to hit the worst case without crashing, so you might as well just reserve the max and focus on reducing what the maximum possible usage is.

I once debugged a crash in a console game that was caused by someone trying to be too clever by half with their allocation and copy constructors. We had a team of a dozen people working on the crash through a weekend during crunch because the crash only occurred in a release build on the console dev kit. The cost of this one stupid bug due to using memory allocation could literally accounted for in the thousands of dollars. I basically had to write a mini one-off release-build stack-tracing sampling debugger in order to trap it. So, anyway, long story short, I’m old enough to appreciate why some people suggest that avoiding allocations is a good thing.

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by danielheath on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @07:21PM (#26718581)
Depends. AFAICT it’s designed to be embedded in a c project; in that context, it’s merely saying “the wuffs part does not allocate; do that in the c code”.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by andrepd on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @08:12PM (#26718976)
Makes sense.
Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by zamalek on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @01:30AM (#26720896)
Seems like an honest question. "Stupidly" is a key word there because humans are, without exception, vastly too stupid to deal with the combinatorial explosion that the heap presents. This is a key goal of languages like Rust: allow the compiler to deal with the complexity for you.

There are vastly fewer interacting elements when you restrict yourself to the stack: basically logic errors and pointer arithmetic become the key concerns (and Wuffs supposedly deals with the latter). Really smart people may be able to completely reason about this space.

Developers are known for imposter syndrome, but we have an unhealthy amount of overconfidence at the same time.

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by phire on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:23AM (#26721821)
Yes.

I'm not so sure about the usefulness for an image decoder.

But if you are designing safety critical realtime software for controlling a car, then you kind of want the extra reliability guarantees that avoiding the heap gives you.

Re:Wuffs’ PNG image decoder by amelius on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:45PM (#26718321)
After NoSQL, now we also have NoAlloc :)