News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by gst on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:21PM (#2671588)
Where is anarchy? What's burning?

Someone sold a huge amount of Bitcoins. The market acted accordingly. Expect a bounce back to the old exchange rate as soon as Mt. Gox is available again.

Of course it might be possible that the computer of the person who sold the Bitcoin was cracked. But that's not the fault of Bitcoin - if someone is not capable of taking care of the security of his local computer, it's better not to use a distributed currency where your money is basically stored inside a single file.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by dkarl on Sunday June 19, 2011 @04:55PM (#2671880)
Exactly, someone sold a huge amount of Bitcoins. I.e., this was the first time it was hacked by someone stupid enough to call enough attention to his crime to have most of what he stole taken back from him. What do you want to bet someone smarter got in there first, and is maybe still in there? There are subtler ways to steal money than grabbing a huge amount all in one chunk and trying to cash out.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by skrebbel on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:30PM (#2671614)
> Of course it might be possible that the computer of the person who sold the Bitcoin was cracked. But that's not the fault of Bitcoin.

Just like it's not the fault of the dollar if someone mugs you at gunpoint. Except robbing someone typically requires you to take physical risks and (threaten to) use violence. I'll be very curious to see any effective way of tracking down bitcoin thieves.

If you have to be a security expert to own more than a few dollars worth of bitcoins, the project has effectively failed already.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by gst on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:56PM (#2671687)
You don't necessarily have to be a security expert to use Bitcoins, just if you want to run the client by yourself.

If you don't have the required knowledge just pay a little bit to a "Bitcoin bank" that handles the task for you. In the real world you also don't carry your money with you all the time, but store it on a bank.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by potatolicious on Sunday June 19, 2011 @06:20PM (#2672097)
Wait, so this is the train of thought for Bitcoin:

- Centralized money is bad! We need to create a perfectly decentralized, distributed economy!

- Oh no! It turns out that the average Joe will get burned really badly by this new decentralized system!

- But wait! What if we created these things called "banks" and provide people peace of mind and security by taking on some of this risk?!

- ...?

- Um... not profit.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by danenania on Monday June 20, 2011 @02:59AM (#2673195)
Did you somehow get the idea that bitcoin users are against banking? Banking (as a concept) and decentralized money are not at odds.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by potatolicious on Monday June 20, 2011 @05:01AM (#2673445)
Banking eradicates many of the supposed gains of decentralized money - not all, but most. I just dig a quick Google for "benefits of Bitcoin" and it seems most people agree on the following:

- Anonymity/trackability. Gone if you are with a bank. Sure, possible to sidestep by going through the song-and-dance that is withdraw-send-deposit. We can do this IRL also, but there's a reason people do not.

- Taxability. Welp, if your BTCs are in a bank, the IRS can easily get you.

- Abusive/coercisve government action (e.g., freezing). Well, yeah, if you're with a bank that can happen too.

- Lack of fees. If banks become standard (and if BTC takes off, yes, they will become standard) then kiss goodbye to this benefit - the same way cash right now has no transaction fee, but bank transactions do.

In fact, the only major sell of Bitcoin that remains:

- Inability for government to arbitrarily expand the supply of money.

Still a win, but suddenly Bitcoins have lost a lot of charm, especially for the everyman for whom the above 4 points are much more salient than that last one.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by ceejayoz on Sunday June 19, 2011 @05:08PM (#2671904)
> In the real world you also don't carry your money with you all the time, but store it on a bank.

In the real world, the banks are subject to regulation.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by sukuriant on Sunday June 19, 2011 @06:24PM (#2672109)
In the real world, the banks /can/ be subject to regulation, and FDIC is a US creation.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by weavejester on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:47PM (#2671665)
If you have to be a security expert to own more than a few dollars worth of bitcoins, the project has effectively failed already.

Why?

It's true that key management and security are not as good as they could be in the official client, but that doesn't mean the project has failed, merely that the client needs to be improved.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by wladimir on Monday June 20, 2011 @06:34AM (#2673620)
Improving the wallet security is priority #1 of the dev team at the moment.

Note that no one of the developers expected it to get this big this fast. Six months ago, no one would even bother stealing bitcoins as they were not more than a toy curiousity. Now very serious amounts of money are represented.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by crocowhile on Sunday June 19, 2011 @04:38PM (#2671829)
Mt.Gox itself was hacked not just a guy. That's a bit like Wall Street being hacked, with due proportions. Also, Mt.Gox reaction to the episode is apparently pissing off a lot of users, as per comments in linked page.

I don't think this is the end of bitcoins but surely enough is quite a ouch moment.

Lesson I've learned today: given that bitcoin wants to be a better currency, they have the chance to provide a better service. A good bitcoin marketplace should enforce two way authentications, maybe with yubikey or even just GPG keys.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by bxc on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:32PM (#2671621)
> Someone sold a huge amount of Bitcoins. The market acted accordingly.

It doesn't seem very free market to rollback the market and cancel all the free market trades that happened.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by sqrt17 on Sunday June 19, 2011 @04:07PM (#2671729)
No, but that's also what would happen when the stock market behaves weirdly enough. It's a good thing, though, that stock markets and foreign exchanges have more trading volume; I'm starting to wonder what happens if a random blokes with a million actual USD wants to game the bitcoin like George Soros did it with the Swedish kroner.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by pnathan on Sunday June 19, 2011 @04:50PM (#2671865)
As a note, when markets get really freaky, rollback of trades happen. I think the usual term I've read is "declared invalid".
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by stef25 on Monday June 20, 2011 @07:36AM (#2673726)
Sorry for being off topic but do you have a link that explains how Soros games the kroner? Just out of genuine interest.
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by sqrt17 on Monday June 20, 2011 @04:52PM (#2676002)
Actually the bigger event around it was the Black Friday in 1992: The Bank of England was hoping/pretending that the pound would stay strong against the FRG Mark, whereas Soros lent a massive amount of pound to other people. When the pound finally devalued, he could fulfill the lendings (at the cheaper pound price). The Swedish currency took similar damage.

Basically, governments trying to stabilize their currency are in danger of losses whenever they meet someone with even deeper pockets. In contrast, the Japanese government could out-trade Soros in the crash in 1987 and Soros had to pocket substantial losses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_policy_of_Sweden#1992

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by vrotaru on Sunday June 19, 2011 @03:52PM (#2671680)
It's entirely free market for an exchange to have its own set of rules and regulation.

Yes, for some time MtGox was The Exchange. It seems that it just ended.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by marshray on Sunday June 19, 2011 @04:06PM (#2671725)
I agree. If one ever needed an example of why Mt. Gox or Bitcoin shouldn't be taken seriously. They had a withdrawal limit of $1000 per day, too. This was simply to save one more day of that.

It makes you wonder if Mt. Gox actually had the hard currency to back up everyone's account balance.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by burgerbrain on Sunday June 19, 2011 @06:45PM (#2672163)
The whole point of the exchange is that what you have is only worth what others participating in the exchange are willing to pay.

"It makes you wonder if The New York Stock Exchange actually had the hard currency to back up everyone's account balance."

That doesn't make any sense either.

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by marshray on Sunday June 19, 2011 @07:16PM (#2672251)
The point of an exchange is that you can trade one thing for another. E.g., US dollars for bitcoins.

Mt. Gox seems to act like both an exchange and a brokerage. Presumably people have an "account" in which they can deposit and withdraw various currencies.

"It makes you wonder if The New York Stock Exchange actually had the hard currency to back up everyone's account balance." That doesn't make any sense either.

I guess you don't have an account with any brokers participating in the NYSE or other exchanges. You can't open an account without writing them a check. Once you've given them money, you can trade NYSE stocks which may gain or lose value. But the dollars you deposit into your account you should be able to get them out again with low risk.

Each currency or security should represent a zero-sum balance sheet for the exchange as a whole. Unless Mt. Gox spent the hard cash for themselves and hoped the market for bitcoins stayed healthy.

Who do they think they are, a Wall Street investment bank?

I agree it doesn't make any sense (but for a different reason).

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by Angostura on Monday June 20, 2011 @07:16AM (#2673682)
Will MtGox buy bitcoins from me? Will the NYSE buy shares from me?

Are these two things actually alike?

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by marshray on Monday June 20, 2011 @03:31PM (#2675621)
Will MtGox buy bitcoins from me?

AFAICT, yes.

Will the NYSE buy shares from me?

Yes, the NYSE is a building full of member broker dealers who will, in fact, buy shares from you when the proper conditions are met. (I.e., you need to be worth their time).

Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by sukuriant on Sunday June 19, 2011 @06:26PM (#2672117)
I was under the understanding that not even real banks have all the money of their users on hand. What point are you trying to make?
Re:500k Bitcoins traded in 1h, Mt.Gox market hacked + crash by marshray on Sunday June 19, 2011 @07:01PM (#2672211)
"Real banks" are highly regulated and in the US are backed up by the US government. I don't know of too many other entities that can handle other people's assets with such low reserve requirements without being considered fraudulent. If there are any, I suspect they're heavily regulated or at least exempted as a speculative private fund.