Probably would’ve still been harassed and wound up on the no-fly list, but yes, if the FBI tricks you into meeting them, walk away.

That's super easy to say. Personally, I know I'd be scared shitless if I ended up in a room, under false pretenses, with the door closed, and government agents questioning if I'm an enemy of the state. I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to just 'walk away' from the FBI.

I'm not just saying it, I've done it. Someone else in this thread has too.

I'd be scared too, still, I'd say I need to consult a lawyer and have one present, otherwise I'm not saying anything or even listening to them...

If you are in such a situation you are already in trouble due to power imbalance. In other places where you can't get a lawyer / have friends high up you might as well play along...

I suggest you avoid blaming the victim. This person though they lived in the freedom country and got East Germany, they were taken by surprise. Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.

Giving advice that people may want to know/follow is not victim blaming. It is trying to be helpful to people that come after, by providing advice that may help avoid this type of event. Saying "this person would have been safer had they acted in this way" does not automatically mean "this person did something they should have known not to".

I didn't read it as blaming Ahmad, rather a reminder that you should have a lawyer present when dealing with law enforcement if possible, because it always comes with the risk of very grave consequences regardless of your innocence.

I'm neither in the US nor Arabic, but your second sentence sounds very problematic. How does this manifest? A person would say that they would like to speak to a lawyer, and then get ignored? Harassed until they relent?

A little bit off topic, but how does that work in practice? How do I find a lawyer instantly? Do Americans generally have a lawyer contact just in case?

I’d like to know this, too! You always hear that phrase: “call your lawyer!” I don’t have a lawyer. I hardly even know any lawyers. I think one of my friend’s wife is a family law attorney but who knows? Chances are, if I’m ever in a situation where I need a lawyer, the Yellow Pages won’t be handy. So how does this even work?

Any paperwork professional (eg accountant, realtor, other type of attorney) will be happy to refer you to an appropriate attorney because they'll make a referral fee off of it. Whether that attorney is any good is another question. However, generally all attorneys are decent at supplying impersonal "default no" answers, which is most of what you really need at first.

The bigger issue is that you'll then be paying at least $300/hour for their services. So now you're burning money to have this conversation just so the FBI can fantasize about being heroes.

Don't talk to the police without an attorney is good baseline advice, but also misses the mark in many ways. Any way you look at it, getting into government crosshairs (whether it's merely civil questioning or a literal gunsight while being used for target practice) is a perverse reverse lottery that survives because of regressive politics and the just world fallacy. And this won't change until there is reform that fully compensates suspects/witnesses/etc for their time, expenses, and other damages incurred as a result of erroneous law enforcement.

FWIW as much as I hate the term, having a relationship with an attorney that you could call for urgent representation is a form of privilege.

Not really. Most people wouldn't typically have a criminal defense lawyer in their phone unless they were accused of something in the past. Invoking your right to an attorney basically just means the law enforcement officers have to stop interrogating you until you've either found a private lawyer, or been assigned a public defender.

hahah, a lawyer of which bar (today was federal) and specialized in which area of law again?

"call a layer" doesn't just suppose you have their phone number, but that you have the on a retainer, because without being arrested, there is no emergency representation procedure for you.

edit I'm laughing at the impracticality of it all, but it's unhelpful, here is the deal : if really you think it's lawyer time, call a random lawyer of your family or business, anybody with a bar exam, and they will refer you to a co-worker of their best guess your case is about. And also, if you call right there in front of the police, you have forfeited your client-attorney privilege because you purposefully placed your call in front of a third party (crap, I went cynical again).

You don’t. You tell them you won’t be talking to them without a lawyer, and they have to drop it until you find one. They can’t demand that you magically produce a lawyer on the spot.

Unfortunately people have to get an important idea in their head. The police are not there to help you for the most part.

In the UK we call the Police the filth for good reason. Law enforcement's job is to incriminate you. They are not there to "protect and serve" that is just marketing. That isn't true of every police officer and isn't true of every police force, but it is safest to assume that it is the truth.

If law enforcement are "wanting to chat" that means they are trying to push something on you. You don't tell them anything, you ask for legal representation and the answer to every question should be "no comment". Anything you tell them will be used against you in the court room.

It shouldn't be that way. But unfortunately that is the truth.

> an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.

The Sixth Amendment guarantees adequate representation. Being accused of a crime by the FBI would qualify as a situation where that representation could be reasonably required if requested by the accused. Arab or not, citizen or not.

You can still make mistakes while not being to blame. Pointing out those mistakes doesn't change the fact that they're the victim, but it might help them or someone else later.

If I leave my car unlocked with an iphone on the dashboard and it gets stolen, I made a mistake, but I'm not to blame.

Minute nitpicking. It's Arab. Arabic is the language.

oops, sorry

> Moreover an Arabic person asking for a lawyer is always a complicated proposition.

Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present.

Any deal would have to be made with lawyer present, no objections, polite.

And call one anyway first point its possible.

Now, being an informant might be degrading but if you have genuine threats that you can help with, might as well cover all options.

> Why? just say you want to call a lawyer and have him present.

Ok let’s go down this route. You say that and then they hand you a phone. Now what? You’re in an empty room, no internet access, no Yellow Pages nearby. What numbers do you press on the phone? I don’t even know a lawyer, let alone have one’s number memorized. That would really be a “they called your bluff” moment.

You have your own phone, you are not arrested / have your stuff seized in this situation. Even then they would notify your family.

Call a friend / wife / parents - hey can you please find me a lawyer and call back - need him at address ...

Then they search and find someone and you shut up until one arrives. (most likely police/fbi will reschedule)

Helps if you actually have a social network, I have quite a few lawyer friends who would be present almost instantly or find someone willing fast.

They can’t force you to produce a lawyer on the spot, and they can’t force you to call one in front of them. Your conversations with lawyers are secret and the police aren’t allowed to know anything about what you talk about. They have to reschedule the interview.

What if you are poor? You won’t be provided with a lawyer, since they aren’t accusing him of a crime. Most people can’t afford to hire a lawyer for something like this.

By saying that you want a lawyer, it makes the results of interrogations without a lawyer very hard to use in court. If you're dealing with investigators that know the law and want a conviction, they'll hold off on questions until a lawyer is present. If you can't get a lawyer to be present, then that's a potential impasse.

Yeah, but if you notice, they fucked up this guys life without ever even bringing him to court. They aren’t dealing with an investigation where they are going to bring charges against this guy... they don’t think he is guilty of anything.

They are trying to brow beat him into being an informant. Their threat is the no fly list, which they were able to use without needing to go to court.

Yeah, in this case it wouldn't have helped. These were not investigators that cared about getting a conviction.

Right, which is why I am confused why people are focusing on his not having a lawyer present during questioning. That wasn’t the issue... he wasn’t tricked into incriminating himself during questioning. A lawyer could not have helped him in this situation.

So why are people saying he should have asked for a lawyer? Sure, I guess, but that doesn’t help this situation at all. Why not suggest he should also eat a healthy breakfast before going to the FBI office? Yes, that is good advice in general, but doesn’t really matter for this situation.

I can't speak for other people, but I was giving a general answer to your "What if you are poor?" question. For most people who are interrogated, even if they can't afford a lawyer, it is in their best interest to request one because good investigators won't risk compromising their case to get testimony they can't use.

Ah, fair enough

No one here was looking for a conviction because there was no crime.

The goal here was coercion via intimidation.

Then you decline to answer any questions without the advice of counsel. They can choose to arrest you or let you go, but they can't compel you to answer their questions without advice of counsel if you invoke that request.

Did you read what happened here? He refused to cooperate, and they put him on the no fly list. They didn’t charge him with any crimes, so they don’t have to worry about any testimony being inadmissible.

You are right, they can’t arrest him... which they didn’t try to do. They did something way worse, which was to put him on the no fly list and strand him out of country.

Avoiding being arrested was not the problem.

This isn’t an investigator trying to get information to bring to court, this is the FBI trying to coerce the guy into being an informant. They don’t care about his actual testimony at this point.

He did not consult with anyone even after threats...

Instead he sent his family to lebannon and flew there himself.

Would have been cheaper just to lawyer up...

Lawyer should be able to help at least track down which agents did this, call bureau to confirm investigation and complain if things are sketchy, help avoid the no fly list or help get you off it... advice...

The person in the article did not know they were going to be questioned by the FBI - they were told they had a "permit issue" at City Hall and were ambushed by the FBI there.

At some point, it became clear that the FBI was questioning them, right? That's the point where you decline to answer without consulting counsel. You don't have to bring a lawyer with you on every errand just in case it's a trap.

While I agree with the sentiment that no one can be prepared for an FBI ambush every day of their lives. This is a teachable moment.

Law enforcement often use tactics like this to convince citizens to voluntarily testify against themselves. It's not fair as the tactic preys on our natural desire to help. But it's important to train ourselves into the mindset that if you are talking with uniformed law enforcement, then you are being interviewed by them.

To whit, if you are being interviewed by law enforcement, your best option is to never answer any of their questions and repeatedly ask to leave. If you are not able to leave then you switch to repeatedly asking for your lawyer.

This echoes all of the times I've been taught how to "deal" with corrupt cops in third world countries (e.g. when to bribe & how much, how to not look "rich" and attract a shakedown, etc.).

This isn't something you ought to have to learn in a free and just society, just as you shouldn't have to know the going rate for a police officer in your town.

I actually agree with you.

There is a lot of talk about the disparity of justice in America and how we are not actually so free after all. I believe most of this feels good to say because we know its true, but after we leave the seminar we go back to a standard civilian mindset.

What I mean is that we walk and talk out in the world like America is just and the police will be fair with you; it is only when we sit down and examine the system that we realize intellectually that this is not the case. But this epiphany fails to carry down to the reptile brain once we stand up again.

Changing that "walking around" mindset is the first step of self-defense training. It is necessary when dealing with American law-enforcement.

Although I agree that it ought not to be.