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Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by paxys on Monday April 05, 2021 @08:57PM (#26706749)
The funny thing is, considering they are taking on the time & cost to move their entire system to SAP, the Oracle one they have in place today must somehow be significantly worse. Imagine that.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:12PM (#26706876)
Not hard to imagine if you've ever had to deal with Oracle apps. Sure, their DB was the gold standard for a long time, but their apps were always abysmal, and then of course many were cobbled together from acquisitions over the years.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by agumonkey on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:37PM (#26707028)
I wonder if Oracle worth was mostly an army of salesmen with one good product and loads of persistence (pun not intended). I've dabbled with 2 applicative from the 90s based on Oracle rebranded things and they were very subpar to say the least.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by rodgerd on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:50PM (#26707476)
My previous experiences in dealing with Oracle as part of an RFP is that it's like something out of Mad Men, in the worst possible way: we had a bunch of requirements that they didn't want to meet, because they were trying to sell their DB appliances, they berated the RFP committee for having those requirements. They laid complaints with our management line against one staffer for asking "hostile" questions.

When they didn't get the decision they wanted, they quickly escalated to exec and director level, and the exec of a major shareholder to try and get the decision overturned.

It wasn't an especially pleasant experience personally, because obviously it involved a lot of very personal attacks by a vendor, but at the same time it was fascinating to watch how they networked from the top down to try to get the decision that they wanted, and run roughshod over the SMEs and process.

Some years later one of the sales team sent me a "Virtualisation for Dummies" book and told me I could learn something from it.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by Sylamore on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:42AM (#26708288)
I have had Oracle, CA and Cisco sales teams do this to me, and I had one consulting company another manager brought in to work on AD forest consolidation start a campaign to get me fired after I outed their supposed SME as having no actual AD experience ("DNS has nothing to do with Active Directory" was just one gem he pushed). While unfortunately it worked for Oracle and CA, Cisco never really had enough juice with the executives to change architecture decisions after they'd been made outside of core networking.

It's made me always work to get Oracle and CA products replaced wherever I have a voice as a result. They may have scored one small $500k deal at that previous employer. I've often found I'm not alone in my dislike for these companies for their shady sales practices, and at least for Oracle enough of us worked together to lose them an 8-figure deal by showing we could do something different for far less once.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by rodgerd on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @05:39PM (#26731715)
A lot of it seems to be the context that they're operating in: Oracle seems to be a really brutal environment for sales staff; I see account managers disappear every 6-12 months, and everything I've heard from people who work for resellers or Oracle in those kind of roles paints it as being absolutely ruthless in a "Glengarry Glen Ross" kind of way.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by Spooky23 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @12:05AM (#26707847)
Reminds me of when a person on the Ars Technica forums posted something that upset the sensibilities of EMC, (it was something about an Avamar bug iirc) who cyberstalked the poster and called the CIO or CFO of his employer.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by raverbashing on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @02:33AM (#26708662)
Ah yes those big companies have specialist "salespeople" whose job is berate the lower-ups and suck-up to the higher-ups trying to sell their overpriced crap
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by p_l on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @12:23AM (#26707929)
A non-trivial amount of cases is when you buy a software package that only supports Oracle - that was pretty much the only reason why we didn't have a campaign to eradicate Oracle DB in my first job - the most critical money-making system was dependant on it.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by agumonkey on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:58AM (#26710384)
Do you think they (Oracle) crafted that situation or it was just organic ?
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by Spooky23 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @05:40PM (#26717717)
A little of both. Back in the day you had a few different platforms. Oracle was a safe choice and eventually a no brainer... most companies had either MS SqlServer or Oracle capability, and a smaller number ran DB2.

Open source created modern Oracle. I worked for a company built around Informix, and that database engine was one of the largest expenses of the company. I think we paid like $40k/socket in 2000. Today, you use an open source database to build your product.

So Oracle had to start selling integrated solutions. They do evil shit like pay higher commissions for salespeople to cross-sell their colleagues. So the Oracle Financials guy gets paid more to sell Identity crap than the identity guy. So the sales idiots form all sorts of weird alliances and kill each other.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by p_l on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @06:17PM (#26718052)
Some of it was specific features offered by Oracle - the ones relevant to my first job were Oracle RAC and in-DB encryption, iirc. We were at the time (2008) upgrading from 3-node cluster in one DC to geographically dispersed system with hot backups.

Thing is, the vendor simply happened to build upon Oracle. If the software supported DB2, or more likely, supported a migration path from Oracle to DB2, I suspect we would have gone with that.

On another hand...

A lot of "Oracle required" software uses a ton of Oracle-specific stored procedures and other components, in fact, I have encountered an MRP software package that was written entirely inside Oracle database. All PL/SQL, with some bits of embedded Java.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by dagw on Thursday April 08, 2021 @05:14AM (#26736702)
I've worked closely with the developers of a couple of such apps and in those cases it was a mainly that Oracle had some non-standard features that made implementing certain core features in the app a lot easier and faster for the developers.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by toyg on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:16PM (#26707258)
SAP will turn out to be equally bad. I don't think anyone in Google is deluded enough to think differently.

The main issue is probably just that SAP is not as litigious as Oracle.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by kram8 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:41AM (#26708277)
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by mmmeff on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @12:50AM (#26708028)
What about SAP is bad? Genuinely curious
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by probably_wrong on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:52AM (#26708360)
I use exactly one SAP application once a month to enter how many hours I worked every day of that month. Let me tell you about it.

First, the width of the app window is fixed and cannot be resized. And some wide columns are fixed in place too, meaning that I can only see three columns at the time (out of 30) and therefore I am constantly scrolling left and right. On top of that, every time the window loses focus it does a weird 2-3 seconds refresh when you come back. As a result, we all write everything in Notepad first and only open SAP when we know we won't need to click away anymore.

Every single cell in that "spreadsheet" can do at least 50 things, but I have never managed to get them to do what I need. If I need the specific code of my position I copy-paste it from last month because that cell's search function has never returned anything useful. But if I check last month's data I lose the data of this month that I didn't save (plus the weird refresh thing happens here too). And if I save something it's there forever and cannot be edited. As a result, if I don't have my employee and workplace codes at hand at the beginning it's faster to throw the partial data away and start all over.

Some fields auto-complete, but I'm not sure under which circumstances. A colleague found that double clicking in a specific cell triggers this, but none of us knows why this specific cell.

This is a single app I use exactly once a month. Imagine having to use something like this every day. Even worse, imagine testing this app and saying "yes, this expensive, slow, uncomfortable app is exactly what my company needs, and I'm glad to know that you expect me to adapt to it instead of the other way around".

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by user568439 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @02:56AM (#26708852)
This app you use is using 20 years old UI concept that has been replaced by SAP a few times. But thanks to the almost eternal compatibility it still works. SAP products have many weaknesses and they are always late and not the best adopting the new trends. But a lot of blame they get is caused by poor implementations in one side and the customers not adopting the newer options for another.

SAP apps are internal and very sensitive to changes, so usually they don’t get priority, but at least you can thank that using such an old app designed for old windows terminal still works. It should just be replaced, but SAP usually leaves that decision to customers and this delays the change a lot

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by benhurmarcel on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @04:07AM (#26709316)
Having an application that keeps working for decades isn't particularly rare in large companies. And yet the SAP applications are systematically among the worst ones to use, worse than the IBM terminal apps or a command line utility.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by benhurmarcel on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @04:11AM (#26709349)
It's like a framework that allows companies to build apps. The kind of apps for which every employee needs a 4-hour training (for each app) just to be able to fill some data in a form regularly, or to be able to view a list of assigned tasks and close them.

Note that after that training, the employee will need his notes to complete the task every single time, and will only complete the task rapidly after several years of experience with the software (and undocumented tips from older coworkers).

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by dijit on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:06AM (#26708112)
Without being curt; their products.

Maybe they have some nicer ones somewhere else but the ones I have used have been buggy, slow, painful messes- I get the strong feeling that SAP is a sales first organisation and engineering is a necessary byproduct.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by FooHentai on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @02:19AM (#26708560)
That's one way of viewing them and I think quite valid. Another lens is that they have a product that can be customized to meet almost any need, but as a result what you get out of the box, or with a poor implementation, is severely lacking. This also drives what you observe - Having an extremely flexible framework rather than a finished product in your sales offering means your salespeople get to run amok promising the absolute earth. Of course SAP can do what you need... it can do anything*

So therein lies the issue - Evaluating a fully customizable software product that will be critical to your business is very difficult to do before it is actually crafted into what you have in mind. So the procurement and implementation processes are often an uphill battle against magical thinking where people are imagining a certain wonderful outcome but without careful, critical attention what you'll end up with is a heap of shit.

I have a policy of not working for organizations that have either oracle or SAP in the core of their environment, unless my purpose in coming onboard is to move them off it. This limits me in many ways, but I know from experience I'm avoiding a significant amount of pure bullshit, enough to make it worth the rule.

*if you're willing to fund an as-yet-unknowable level of customization effort to reach your organization's particular nirvana.

tl;dr the future SAP has sold to Google may indeed look better than the Oracle reality they're currently living, but it doesn't necessarily follow that their SAP reality will be any good. Such are the perils of procurement.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by ta988 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @09:14AM (#26711368)
Is there an alternative for companies of that scale?
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by FooHentai on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @07:30PM (#26718657)
Possibly not, but the hazards of software procurement bite bigger at that kind of scale, and it's an under-studied science with not enough assurance of quality outcomes. I'm sure that 'x percent of IT projects fail' metric has improved at least somewhat in the last couple of decades but it's still fraught with pitfalls. Not uncommon to end up with an end result only as good as, or even potentially worse, than the one you were rushing away from. Better the devil you know, and all that.

Regarding altenatives at that scale, I've not been involved in a project at that kind of scale, biggest SAP implementation I was involved in was ~10k employees and Alphabet is sitting at ~130k right now. I don't want to dive too much into speculation, perhaps Google will get a good outcome with this approach and since they're coming from a bad place with Oracle the future might still be crap but perhaps just a bit less so.

The biggest issue with procurement of SAP and it's ilk is it shifts a fundamental burden from procurement to implementation. With a defined software/SaaS solution that's ready to go out of the box, you get to answer a lot of the yes/no functional questions at procurement stage. It can do it or it can't do it and you get to decide how important that is to you. With SAP, every requirement is answered with 'it can do that' with the massive asterix that to make it do what you need it's all going to need to be customized to do so. That opens you up to a lot of risk IMO.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by ta988 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @09:07PM (#26719405)
Thanks for the detailed answer. I hadn't thought about the shift from procurement to later in the life of the product.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by rurban on Friday April 09, 2021 @04:24AM (#26748000)
Sure. Make it yourself. Very easy. In several of my companies we would create our own business layer, without the SAP bullshit.

It's cheaper, it's faster, it doesn't need training and cheat cards, it's self explanatory, and you can maintain it by yourself. Plus you know it inside out. Plus you can add much better features, like graphical reports on top of it easier.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by zaarn on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @10:48AM (#26712439)
I've had some working experience with SAP. If you use their latest and greatest, it's not as painfully bad as people think it is. Large part of SAP will be in-house customization (or you pay SAP to do that), so that is a very mixed bag.

The other part is; SAP supports things forever. You can run their old buggy DB from 2003 in 2021 with paid support. Bug-for-bug compatible on Windows Server 2019 probably too. That has a lot of value for a lot of SAP customers.

I would also remind that SAP (and DTAG) built the german corona tracing app, which was delivery in about 2 months, open source under Apache2.0 and very privacy aware. And well within budget no less.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by eurasiantiger on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:16AM (#26708144)
Agree. It’s like they have a two-man team for every product, and any bug fixes are going to take years.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by toyg on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @05:01AM (#26709661)
It's the classic-PHP of business systems. You could build great systems in (old-school) PHP, which dramatically improved users' lives; but more often than not, you'd end up with an unmaintainable bowl of spaghetti instead, that only the original cook could understand - and very rarely users' lives would actually improve in any meaningful way.

It's the same with SAP.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by rurban on Friday April 09, 2021 @02:38AM (#26747348)
Not comparable. PHP has at least fantastic performance. SAP is not only as ugly and illdesigned as PHP, it is mostly slow as hell. Besides expensive. PHP is free.

To run a simple non-official query, you would need to aquire a timeslot on Friday evening running over all 100.000 records, because the thing will run for half an hour. Not kidding.

I talked to the sales agent why they don't add indices to their database, and he answered "we don't need explicit indices. Our system is so advanced, it does auto-indexing". Lol. They really believe their own bullshit. Looks like their idea of a JOIN are 3 nested for loops.

Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by kristianp on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:56PM (#26707510)
Not as litigious, and doesn't own Java, (whose std library APIs google copied).
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by agumonkey on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:36PM (#26707018)
Good point. Also surprising they didn't make a new Google-X project to solve the problem. Or maybe they did ..
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:08PM (#26707577)
You'd think they'd assign an in house project to X to build a better tool with the ability easily to migrate from Oracle. Dogfood it for a few years and then sell it to get their revenge on Larry.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by bathtub365 on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:13PM (#26707600)
That would require them to support a piece of software not directly tied to their advertising business for longer than a few years.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @02:54AM (#26708844)
It would require them to foster a new venture that delivers value and can be spun off as an independent entity. That's sort of what X is about.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by smnrchrds on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:45PM (#26707758)
How many tens of billions of dollars will this make them? Not that much? Google is not interested.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by kirykl on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @01:44AM (#26708305)
Easier to find financial labor familiar with std software
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by sjg007 on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @11:40AM (#26713214)
Oracle probably upped the licensing fee in light of the recent supreme court decision.
Re:Google will stop using Oracle’s finance software and adop... by unixhero on Tuesday April 06, 2021 @02:46AM (#26708779)
I have worked on it, Oracle ERP. It got the job done, but it felt flakey.