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Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:14PM (#26682770)
A Tesla Powerwall 2 weighs 114.0 kg and provides 13.5 kWh.

Average US household electricity consumption is 877 kWh/month, which would be 29kWh/day.

Either they mean a very efficient/small house, or homeowners with unusually frugal habits.

Edit: Average UK household electricity consumption appears to be around 10kWh/day.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by Someone on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:19PM (#26682806)
Or houses not in the USA. http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity...:

“The average American or Canadian household in 2010 used about twenty times more than the typical Nigerian household, and two to three times more than a typical European home”

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by umvi on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:18PM (#26683339)
Why is that? Is it because North Americans use electricity for cooking and heating whereas other countries use gas for that?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by ajuc on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:32PM (#26683465)
Air conditioning isn't needed in many EU countries except for a few days a year (so it's not worth to even install it in private homes, modern offices mostly have them though for some reason).

Also depending on the country few people use cloth driers - you just hang your clothes on a cable and let them dry by themselves.

Houses in colder parts of EU are also usually better isolated than in US ([1] that's a typical Polish house for example), and more people live in flats in blocks instead of independent houses (so heat loses are vastly reduced because you only have 1 or 2 outdoors walls).

Homes are also simply bigger in US. Average home size (including flats) in my country is a little over 70 square meters. It's probably bigger in western Europe but not by that much.

Also big houses usually have 2/3 stories instead of being very "wide".

And electric heating/cooking isn't very popular, but I think that depends on the country.

It all goes back to electricity prices - in Poland in 1980s most houses had no isolation, everybody heated with coal which had fixed (and very low) prices. Then communism ended, prices were free to change with the market, some taxes were introduced, and suddenly everybody isolated their houses in like 10 years. Otherwise you burned money like crazy.

[1] https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/pressland-cms/cache/__...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by r00fus on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:43PM (#26684085)
Global Warming is changing that. Anecdotally in my observations, more new houses in France now have AC whereas it was rare only 5 years ago.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by bluGill on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:12PM (#26685198)
Global warming is not that much difference. People just can afford ac now so they buy it.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by r00fus on Monday April 12, 2021 @01:29PM (#26782345)
Given I have skipped last year (due to COVID) but we'd been in France every summer for the previous 5 years and it's gotten hotter and hotter - resulting successive record breaking summers.

I think the decline of the jet stream is a bigger deal for Europe than the US. Hotter summers and colder winters.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by throwawayboise on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:19PM (#26684841)
People are also fatter and less tolerant of warm weather.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by mr_toad on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:17PM (#26686623)
Heat pumps are an efficient way of heating in the winter, and double as AC in the summer.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by polote on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:39PM (#26684971)
Reversible ac are more energy efficient that heater, x3 I think
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by thesteamboat on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:30PM (#26683968)
Sorry to nitpick, but I assume you mean EU houses are better insulated than those in the US, rather than isolated.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by azeirah on Sunday April 04, 2021 @07:31AM (#26688610)
Whaha, the Dutch word for insulation is "isolatie". The word "isolatie" also translates directly to the English word "isolation" as in being away from everyone.

I think the poster might be Dutch or similar :p

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by ajuc on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:34PM (#26684479)
Yup. False friend. Thanks for teaching me a new word :)
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by baybal2 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:58PM (#26683698)
> ([1] that's a typical Polish house for example),

I believe a typical Polish "house" will be an apartment.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by ajuc on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:02PM (#26683730)
42% of Poles live in apartaments. It was slightly above 50% several years ago.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by twelvechairs on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:03PM (#26684716)
House size is basically proportional to the increased energy. The average US home is 2-2.5 larger than European homes [0]. This doesn't just mean more space to heat and cool but also more space for additional appliances.

[0] https://i0.wp.com/shrinkthatfootprint.com/wp-content/uploads...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by urthor on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:13PM (#26685901)
Office buildings use them because the heating/cooling part is secondary.

They need it for ventilation because 6th floor office windows don't open for obvious reasons.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by fwsgonzo on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:22PM (#26683372)
Probably due to differences in standards, like wall isolation (I don't know the english terms). My house has 25cm isolation in the walls and 40cm isolation under the roof. I also have 3-layer windows and a thick metal door. The ventilation system is isolated and the air heat is reused to save electricity. This is for a 260sqm house.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by nightski on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:26PM (#26683419)
We average 400-500 in the spring, fall, and winter. In the summer with AC however we'll double that. We are in a northern climate, I have to imagine in the south it gets pretty spendy for AC.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by cwhiz on Sunday April 04, 2021 @08:47AM (#26689015)
Same reason most Americans are poor. Inability to prioritize long term goals over immediate gains. Save $50 today, but spend $500 more over the next decade.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by fulafel on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:19PM (#26683891)
US housing is very roomy, often features AC and poor insulation, and electricity is cheap and avergae incomes are high.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:20PM (#26683354)
I suspect big houses, poor insulation, air conditioning, and gluttony.

Most of the US houses I've been in use either gas or fuel oil for heating.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by galangalalgol on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:33PM (#26683467)
We have lots of elctric furnaces or heat pumps in the southern and western states where winters are milder. The air conditioning is the real usage. The insulation in new homes is good, but the insulation to keep heat out needs to be in walls as much as ceilings which is harder to retrofit. Modern AC systems help quite a lot and keeping heat away from ac ducting in the attic by insulating them amd adding roof vents and radiant barrier to keep the attic cool. Lighter colors so your south facing wall doesn't fry eggs (literally) also help.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by 300africans on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:20PM (#26682811)
Here in Burkina faso, I use between 5 and 12kwh per day with air con some months taking it close to 15kwh. If the price keeps coming down and with some solar installation, one can leave the grid in a couple of years time
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by marcosdumay on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:28PM (#26682880)
I imagine most of the aircon energy usage coincides with the times of peak photovoltaic generation. So if you calculate by total energy consumption, you'll overestimate things by a huge margin.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by Armisael16 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:43PM (#26684087)
You can imagine that, but it isn’t true. AC usage is relatively low in the middle of the day because people let their houses warm up while their at work. It jumps at the end of the workday.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by nicoburns on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:17PM (#26684371)
> AC usage is relatively low in the middle of the day because people let their houses warm up while their at work

Presumably if electricity was free during th day and expensive at night, that habit would change rapdily.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by _JamesA_ on Saturday April 03, 2021 @05:20PM (#26684850)
Is that still true in the work from home post covid era?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by baybal2 on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:59PM (#26683709)
How is life in Burkina Faso?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by ghaff on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:23PM (#26682837)
It also looks like a Powerwall 2 costs about $7,500 plus about another $5K for installation.

I use about 20kWh per day--I have a somewhat smaller house--and vaguely looked into whole house batteries a few months back and concluded they would only make sense if I had it wired into just a few critical systems like my furnace. But, at the end of the day, I should still just get a propane-fueled generator at this point if I ever got anything.

So $2K for a battery that can power a house for a day seems almost an order of magnitude off if they literally mean power an entire normal house.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by quickthrowman on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:41PM (#26682988)
> But, at the end of the day, I should still just get a propane-fueled generator at this point if I ever got anything.

Yes, a propane or natural gas generator is a lot more flexible/higher capacity

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by natch on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:40PM (#26682977)
The average US house is not the average house, nor is it representative of normal in the world we live in, which happens to dwarf the US by a factor of roughly 25.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:18PM (#26683336)
I don't assume they mean something smaller than a factor of 25 either. 1.2kWh would be substantially less than 40kg.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by kragen on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:27PM (#26683424)
No, no, the world is 25 times bigger than the US, by population. So it's ridiculous to equate houses with US houses, especially when reading a British publication.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:40PM (#26683528)
The article uses US dollars quite a lot. That's why I posted US stats, marked as such. I did update it with a UK average as well.

Also, FWIW, the North American edition of the Economist accounts for more than half the readers. UK readers are less than 20% of the total.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by kragen on Saturday April 03, 2021 @06:45PM (#26685408)
The Economist usually takes a worldwide perspective; that's why this article uses US dollars and French kilograms and meters, because those are the most widely recognized units, even though the article focuses mostly on developments in the US.

As for your other comment, that air conditioning and spending US$2000 isn't "representative of the world," I think you will be very surprised if at some point you travel outside the US. The rest of the world does not consist of Elbonian mud farmers as you seem to think. Air conditioning is common throughout the warmer parts of the world; the majority of the world's population has access to air conditioning, though not always at home. The gross world product is about US$17500 per person per year, PPP.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @10:20PM (#26686413)
"I think you will be very surprised if at some point you travel outside the US"

I'm not quite sure what prompted you to drag this down to that level. FWIW, I spent several years living in Europe and the Middle East. In homes that weren't air conditioned even. And a fair amount of travel to many other places.

"The rest of the world does not consist of Elbonian mud farmers as you seem to think"

Wow. You have no reason to go there. Fuck off. Saying that lacking $2k of discretionary money to spend on lithium batteries is "Elbonian mud farmers". Wtf. I've certainly had times I my adult life where I didn't have $2k of discretionary money.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by kragen on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:39PM (#26686716)
Haha! I didn't realize you were imagining a battery bank as some kind of toy. I was thinking more like an alternative to a gasoline generator, which is not really "discretionary spending".
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:40PM (#26686724)
Discretionary spending doesn't imply toy. What's with the taunting?
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by kragen on Saturday April 03, 2021 @11:58PM (#26686783)
The taunting was uncalled for. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have accused you of ignorance. Your response was definitely not what I expected.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by natch on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:29PM (#26683960)
Kragen was right, I was talking about the size of the world. The US is not representative of average or normal. Nor is the UK. And UK publications, due perhaps to colonial history, tend to take a more global view so I would not assume their notion of an average house is centered on the UK either.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by tyingq on Saturday April 03, 2021 @03:42PM (#26684071)
Neither is air conditioning representative of the world, or people with a "house" that have $2k to spend on a 40kg lithium battery plus more on the other stuff like inverters, frames, installation. But all are clearly noted in the article as part of the target audience.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by adrianmonk on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:36PM (#26682933)
Your point still stands, but there's probably some small correction factor necessary since the article seems to be talking about the weight of the cells only.

Although I'd bet the weight of the cells does make up the majority of the mass of a Powerwall, other components might have significant weight. From some quick, cursory research, it seems to have a metal frame/cover and apparently has some kind of liquid cooling. (Also, minimizing weight for a Powerwall seems less important than for an EV.)

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sgt on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:31PM (#26683455)
South Africa here.

Our house uses about 20 kWh a day during the summer, with some minor AC usage in one of the rooms when needed.

During the winter probably about 30kWh, and that excludes extra costs like wood for fireplace.

My house is fully insulated and all windows are double glazed, so that keeps energy usage more efficient. I also have a solar heater (aka "geyser") which lowers energy costs even more. So with that in mind, I really can't believe they're using less than this in Europe...

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by bobthepanda on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:49PM (#26683609)
They might be just using less electricity but other means to generate their needs.

I've heard that the EU has a lot more district heating (which wouldn't show up in an electricity bill, AFAIK) and I'd imagine a fair deal of older buildings have a boiler using oil or gas or something else to burn.

AC is also just not very prevalent.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by nicoburns on Saturday April 03, 2021 @04:19PM (#26684383)
> I'd imagine a fair deal of older buildings have a boiler using oil or gas or something else to burn.

In the UK gas boilers are common even in newbuild homes. I don't know a single person with AC (though it's common in offices).

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by brucehoult on Saturday April 03, 2021 @07:09PM (#26685554)
Far north New Zealand, 4 bedroom house, no insulation, no double glazing, electric hot water and cooking. 9-10 kWh/day October-May, ~18 kWh/day June-September (dehumidifier). Wood burner (about US$150/winter) when the heat from the dehumidifier isn't enough to maintain 20 C.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sjwright on Saturday April 03, 2021 @08:50PM (#26686053)
Remarkable. I’m in Sydney, my house sounds similar by description but I have gas hot water and stovetop. My house uses over 5 kWh/day for ambient/idle power alone.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by brucehoult on Saturday April 03, 2021 @09:22PM (#26686188)
I'm typing this on a 32 core ThreadRipper with 32" 4K screen, which runs 24 hours a day! I also have a Zen 2 laptop and a headless M1 Mac Mini running all the time. And assorted Raspberry Pi, HiFive Unleashed etc. But no TV (or at least it's off).
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sgt on Sunday April 04, 2021 @03:45PM (#26692264)
That's impressive. What's your usage pattern like? I mean, in our house there's regular use of washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher, TV's, swimming pool pump. Heck even the swimming pool takes a couple of kWh a day! Would be curious on how to live so frugally.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sjwright on Sunday April 04, 2021 @05:44PM (#26693096)
Sorry if I was unclear. 5 kWh/day of idle. That’s how much it uses when we’re literally not home and all I’ve left on is the networking gear, appliances on standby, etc.

My average actual occupied usage is closer to 20-25 kWh/day, varying mainly by AC load.

Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by sgt on Monday April 05, 2021 @05:40AM (#26697015)
Sorry, you were clear enough, I just didn't read properly. I think my idle is about the same.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by dv_dt on Saturday April 03, 2021 @01:30PM (#26682894)
It’s enough for the twilight evening usage for a household when paired with a solar system.
Re:Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades by petra on Saturday April 03, 2021 @02:45PM (#26683585)
So 29kWH/day. Say you get half of that from your solar panels at sunrise. 13.9kWh is almost the other half.