News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:00AM (#26588888)
> the question of jury nullification could be taken up by the Supreme Court

The “question” of jury nullification is a fundamental flaw of the jury system. Legalising it invites mob rule. Directly challenging it undermines the prerogative of a jury. So...we just don’t talk about it. If it were to be solved, it would involve the abolition of the jury system. Which nobody wants.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by cgriswald on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:12AM (#26588949)
Judges talk about it all the time, usually in less direct language, when they give the jury their instructions. The solution is: judges talk about it, but can't really stop a jury from doing it.

I don't think it is accurate to define it as 'mob rule.' Generally, in mob rule, the mob decides who is guilty and punishes them arbitrarily. In jury nullification, the mob decides who is technically guilty but unjustly punished (because the law is bad, because the punishment is too severed, etc..)

I won't lie to a judge or to anyone in court. But I won't ever convict someone if the death penalty is on the line. I expect to be excused, but if not... That isn't 'mob rule.' That's a power granted to me as a juror by the system. Presidents and Congress have grasped far more power than that without explicitly (and sometimes without even implicitly) being granted that power.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:59AM (#26589146)
> In jury nullification, the mob decides who is technically guilty but unjustly punished (because the law is bad, because the punishment is too severed, etc..

Jury nullification is a jury acting on its own accord, without respect to the law.

Overruling unjust punishment is the archetype. The Northern jury nullifying Fugitive Slave Act convictions, for instance. The flip side of that coin is Southern juries nullifying lynching convictions. One can make a value judgement on that not being jury nullification, but it's the same mechanism.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by cgriswald on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:27AM (#26589305)
I remain unconvinced. It is the law that gives juries this power. Can it be used for what you or I consider bad purposes? Sure. But so can any other power granted by the law. It is generally accepted that powers, both explicit and implicit can be used by the government. This includes elected officials and unelected bureaucrats. I see no reason not to extend the same to jurors.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:32AM (#26589325)
> It is the law that gives juries this power. Can it be used for what you or I consider bad purposes?

The law grants this power to juries under the premise that they behave objectively. If jury nullification became commonplace, I would expect we'd see calls to join the rest of the world in abolishing popular juries. I think that would be a net loss.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by tremon on Friday March 26, 2021 @05:40AM (#26590245)
Are you asserting that a jury can never objectively reach a nullifying verdict?
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by cycomanic on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:22AM (#26589582)
Why would it be? I have yet to see a convincing argument that popular juries make better (more just) judgements.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by FpUser on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:50AM (#26589117)
If I believe that the law as applied to particular case is unjust I would nullify without second thought. Fuck the law if it goes against basic human values. And I am glad that as fucked as US justice system is it still allows for such outcome. At least in theory.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by tehjoker on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:20AM (#26589265)
It's funny that so much energy is expended talking about how Jury Nullification is a flaw in the system when the courts themselves can simply overrule congress by agreeing with each other due to Marbury vs Madison (which was essentially judicial nullification).

While nullification has mostly been used for ill in the past, at least it's a grassroots democratic process. Why should someone be punished if their peers don't think it should be a crime? That's pretty small d democratic, much more so than elections where your vote barely counts.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:23AM (#26589283)
> Marbury vs Madison (which was essentially judicial nullification)

Last I checked, juries aren't co-equal with Congress.

> Why should someone be punished if their peers don't think it should be a crime?

If cases become a matter of selecting your sampling bias, the legal system becomes unpredictable. That, in turn, subverts the rule of law--you no longer know if what you're doing is legal based on the law per se.

If jury nullification becomes commonplace, the jury system would need to be revised or thrown out. If you have trouble imagining this, imagine a group you are highly unsympathetic to, now put them in a zip code, now put them on a jury, now write the headlines they rulings would produce.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by tehjoker on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:32AM (#26589326)
I'd point out that until Marbury v Madison the supreme court was not a co-equal branch. It was simply an interpreter of what congress passed with no ability to declare things unconstitutional. It was a power grab by the courts.

You can claim declaring laws unconstitutional is kind of an implied power, but it is certainly no where in the text.

Other thinkers have said that legalism is fake and there is really only contests between political factions with a legal gloss to pretend things are fair and objective. If you take that critique seriously, then the courts shouldn't have that power and congress should decide what is constitutional as they are actually elected and represent legitimate authority.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:42AM (#26589386)
> If you take that critique seriously, then the courts shouldn't have that power and congress should decide what is constitutional as they are actually elected and represent legitimate authority

Philosophically, I like this argument. Practically, dear god.

The U.S. system was supposed to balance the stability of monarchy (executive) and aristocracy (judiciary) against the justness of democracy (legislative). Our executive is, by design and decidedly, not monarchic. That removes a "slow thinking" system, leaving the "fast thinking" executive and legislature. We see the results in our political volatility.

Given the last two hundred years, Marbury was right. We needed a dampener, so to speak. People not incentivized by poll numbers.

P.S. Thank you. This has been a fun discussion and distraction.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by tehjoker on Friday March 26, 2021 @10:29AM (#26592579)
Always enjoy talking constitutionalism. :D
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by tehjoker on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:25AM (#26589293)
You are right, but I can also imagine the inverse where authoritarian laws cause activists or whistleblowers to be in jeopardy in contravention of all decency. The unevenness at the local level is problematic, but so is evenness of really bad laws.

For example, a jury should feel free to simply dismiss charges brought under the espionage act.

I should also point out that nullification was unfortunately mostly used to acquit lynchers. I'm not sure why precisely that only that particular heinous act inspired enough solidarity to nullify the law as opposed to anything good, so historically nullification has been mostly a bad thing.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:30AM (#26589317)
> where authoritarian laws cause activists or whistleblowers to be in jeopardy in contravention of all decency

The short answer is jury nullification is an unavoidable thing. If matters get bad enough, it will kick in. (Though if things get that bad, they'll be eliminated.) That doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

The moment you let juries start deciding whether the law is just, versus deciding if a law was broken, you remove the veneer of objectivity that has kept our courts somewhat sacred. It also becomes problematic for lawyers to remove jurists for ridiculous political views, as it becomes a First Amendment issue. Currently, that isn't a problem--your political views don't matter. Only your objectivity does.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by cwillu on Friday March 26, 2021 @04:01AM (#26589745)
> The short answer is jury nullification is an unavoidable thing. If matters get bad enough, it will kick in. (Though if things get that bad, they'll be eliminated.) That doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang%E2%80%93bang_control with all of its flaws

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by krapp on Friday March 26, 2021 @08:39AM (#26591361)
I think the fundamental flaw is failing to recognize that the jury system is intended to be a form of mob rule, and that "jury nullification" should be considered a feature, not a bug.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by jakeogh on Friday March 26, 2021 @03:44AM (#26589668)
It's not a flaw. The concept of a jury is meaningless without it.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by vincentmarle on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:14AM (#26588956)
> If it were to be solved, it would involve the abolition of the jury system. Which nobody wants.

Well, 90% of the world is doing just fine without the jury system. What is so great about it anyways?

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:17AM (#26589253)
> What is so great about it anyways?

It's the sole popular check on the judiciary, the unelected branch of government.

Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:41AM (#26589072)
I haven’t read the Federalist Papers, but I would assume that they touched on the reasons why the right to a jury trial was included in the Constitution.
Re:Supreme Court expands meaning of 'seizure' under 4th Amen... by gameswithgo on Friday March 26, 2021 @02:42AM (#26589385)
mob rules is sometimes the only defense we have against the oligarchy