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Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Thursday March 25, 2021 @01:40PM (#26583135)
The allegations aren't smiling, it was asking women to have sex (including parading a bed in his office) repeatedly, in an academic environment. That's a bit more. Then there was the email sent to the CSAIL mailing list that talked about how one shouldn't assume a minor (that was provided by epstein) wasn't willing to have sex.
Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by radmuzom on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:03PM (#26583399)
> Asking women to have sex

Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite common for socially inept individuals.

> Parading a bed

For a long time, Stallman lived in his office. I have known other academics who preferred to do the same. Again, not one person has come forward and said that Stallman ever invited them to that bed.

> how one shouldn't assume a minor (that was provided by epstein) wasn't willing to have sex

He did not say that at all. Re-read the emails again. Hint, he uses the word "presented" which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. For someone precise like Stallman, every word matters. Anyway, I have read the emails multiple times now and his only message was to reconsider all the facts first given the serious allegation of "sexual assault" on Minsky. Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:54PM (#26583958)
>Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite common for socially inept individuals.

I said allegations. This doesn't come from the original Medium post, but the recent update. I was hopelessly socially inept and never did such a thing.

>He did not say that at all. Re-read the emails again. Hint, he uses the word "presented" which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. For someone precise like Stallman, every word matters. Anyway, I have read the emails multiple times now and his only message was to reconsider all the facts first given the serious allegation of "sexual assault" on Minsky. Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true.

Wether someone presents or doesn't has no bearing on it being sexual assault. Sexual acts with a minor are always sexual assault unless Romeo and Juliet laws apply, full stop. There is no need to put it in quotes.

Besides, it was abundantly clear to Minsky that these women were minors and that there was a high chance of sexual trafficking.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by __blockcipher__ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:27PM (#26583643)
> Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true.

And you may already be aware of this, but for any third parties reading this, please be aware that these types of things are not a one-off innocent mistake. When you start actually looking you realize that literally everything the corporate press outputs is all part of a carefully crafted narrative, and at no point does actual capital-T Truth come into play.

See also: Gell-Mann Amnesia effect (except more malicious)

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:55PM (#26583970)
I have literally never read a corporate press article on this subject, all the data I have comes from independent allegations made by people who did contribute to free software.
Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by __blockcipher__ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @08:49PM (#26587630)
I wasn’t replying to you to be clear, it was a general statement.

However your characterization of his comments wrt Minksy does make me question your credibility. If you couldn’t honestly characterize them, it is more likely that you could be equally disingenuous in recounting “independent allegations”.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Thursday March 25, 2021 @08:55PM (#26587678)
I've come to that conclusion after reading the emails by myself.

Sexual relations with minors outside of Romeo and Juliet cases is always sexual assault, and it's even moreso when you're meeting those minors after stepping into the "Lolita Express", at the direct behest of someone that was publicly known to be in the sex trafficking business. Where I live that is unambiguously at least sexual assault, if not worse.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by __blockcipher__ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:19PM (#26587823)
Minsky denies having sex - not that he ever wouldn’t if he did have sex - but my understanding is that she was above the age of consent in the jurisdiction they were in, assuming he knew her age.

“Where you live” should not be the determinant here

I don’t see how Stallman’s admittedly autistic comments are damning. He was pointing out that it is very plausible that to Minsky the girl presented herself as willing and consenting despite secretly being coerced by Epstein.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by skissane on Friday March 26, 2021 @05:18AM (#26590140)
> Minsky denies having sex - not that he ever wouldn’t if he did have sex

Does the victim, Virginia Roberts Giuffre, agree or disagree with that denial?

If you read her actual deposition [0] it isn't very clear. It is clear that Epstein/Maxwell told her to have sex with Minsky, but it isn't clear whether it actually happened or not. She isn't explicit on that point, and the questioner doesn't ask her to elaborate.

As far as I am aware, in her subsequent public statements and interviews, she has never clarified this specific issue.

Obviously that makes a huge difference as to how one morally judges Minsky. Worse case scenario, Minsky was a willing and knowing client of Epstein's sex trafficking ring. Best case scenario, he displayed poor judgement in continuing to associate with Epstein after his conviction, but was innocent of any participation in Epstein's sexual crimes. I don't think we have enough facts to decide between those two possibilities, but maybe in the absence of evidence we ought to assume the best of people (and especially of the deceased.)

[0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ZOEKwoBnDKUFI1hLbFJH5nsUFx... pages numbered 204–205 (PDF pages 182-183)

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:51PM (#26587990)
I'm not a moral legalist nor an absolute moral relativist. Flying out to a different jurisdiction to do morally wrong things doesn't make out any better.

I don't understand how you could pretend that Epstein's coercion was secret. It was literally a matter of public record.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by __blockcipher__ on Friday March 26, 2021 @01:24AM (#26588993)
You changed the goalposts. We're not discussing whether it's moral or not. We're discussing Stallman's comment that the interaction between Minksy and the girl was plausibly not sexual assault - specifically whether his comment was unreasonable or not.

Obviously I'm not endorsing having sex with one of Epstein's victims...

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by kaba0 on Saturday March 27, 2021 @03:23AM (#26600620)
> We're discussing Stallman's comment that the interaction between Minksy and the girl

No, it is irrelevant (that alone should not lead to letting him go).

The many cases of actual in-person harassments are the important parts, like actually grabbing a colleague’s ass and there is plenty of others - just because “that side” is wrong on the former point, doesn’t make them wrong on the other.

Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by sudosysgen on Friday March 26, 2021 @11:14AM (#26593111)
No, I'm not changing the goalposts. My definition of sexual assault doesn't change depending on where in the world the sexual assault takes places. Having sexual encounters with an underage person is at least sexual assault, full stop. I don't care if you flew to an island where it's technically legal beforehand or if local laws are different.
Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by kitsune_ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @02:35PM (#26583725)
I mean these allegations from established researchers etc. are pretty damning https://twitter.com/grok_/status/1375049417926053894
Re:Free Software: An idea whose time has passed? by __blockcipher__ on Thursday March 25, 2021 @09:17PM (#26587809)
Are they? Forgive me for being skeptical post-Kavanaugh but I find it hard to believe that Stallman licked somebody in public without it being big news...

I think we need to have actual standards of evidence when it comes to booting someone not just from the FSF but the community as a whole