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Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:29AM (#26540479)
Hungarian has no gendered pronouns, but English has them. The text has been translated from Hungarian to English. What would be the "correct" (or "non-biased") way for Google Translate to handle this scenario? Should all pronouns in the translated text be either a "he", a "she" or a "they"? Wouldn't that still be considered "biased"?
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by slibhb on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:42AM (#26540642)
> Should all pronouns in the translated text be either a "he", a "she" or a "they"? Wouldn't that still be considered "biased"?

The proffered solution is to use singular "they" of course. Trouble is, people don't talk like that and so from a language-is-as-it-used perspective (descriptivist), always using singular "they" makes your translation worse.

I would offer a solution like this: allow the person using the translation program to specify pronoun rules.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by kiscica on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:35AM (#26541394)
The problem with "they" is that it is in fact a very bad translation for "ő" in a sentence like "ő mosogat." We typically find gender-neutral "they" in English when there is an indefinite antecedent like "someone" or "anyone" - "if anyone objects, they should talk to me." In contrast, in Hungarian, including the third-person pronoun "ő" means the speaker has a very definite subject in mind and in fact wishes to emphasize that (a neutral "he/she is washing up" would be just "mosogat", without any explicit pronoun; "ő mosogat" almost means "HE [not someone else] is washing up." (Or "SHE" of course.) The only case where I can imagine translating "ő" as "they" in this kind of context is when I know that the person in question explicitly prefers the pronoun "they," e.g. because they identify as non-binary.
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by slibhb on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:52AM (#26541653)
> The problem with "they" is that it is in fact a very bad translation for "ő" in a sentence like "ő mosogat." We typically find gender-neutral "they" in English when there is an indefinite antecedent like "someone" or "anyone" - "if anyone objects, they should talk to me."

There is a school of thought that says we should change how we use the English language. This school thinks that the proper way to speak is to assume non-binary until informed otherwise and that appealing to "what sounds right" or "the rules of grammar" is unacceptable linguistic conservativism.

I am not making that argument. I'm just raising it because it seems relevant here. I would point out that, even if you disagree with this argument, it seems reasonable to think that people should be able to choose how they use pronouns, whether their usage flies in the face of linguistic convention/rules of grammar or goes along with them.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by kiscica on Monday March 22, 2021 @12:33PM (#26543114)
I absolutely agree that people should be able to choose how they use pronouns (or in fact any component of language). Communication is a mutual endeavour, and I will always make my best good-faith effort to understand what an interlocutor is trying to convey (assuming I want to talk to them in the first place :), even if they choose to use language differently from the way I would. In fact (within reason) I will even adapt my own usage in some cases - e.g. I will do my best to use the pronoun "they" (or "xe" or "foobar" or whatever) when referring to someone who wishes to be referred to in that way, even though (despite knowing several languages with gender-neutral pronouns) I find that takes non-insignificant mental effort when I speak English.

That said, precisely because communication is a mutual endeavour, and language is a coöperative framework, there is no guarantee that -- just because you choose to use "they" in this way -- others will follow. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if, within a generation, "they" became an unmarked definite gender-neutral pronoun in English (today it is arguably unmarked in the case of an indefinite antecedent, but extremely marked otherwise). But I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it didn't, either. Language change is an emergent process and not something that can easily be forced in either conservative or radical directions.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by slibhb on Monday March 22, 2021 @12:50PM (#26543331)
I completely agree with you. I'm not arguing for anything to be forced, only for individual users to be able to choose the pronoun rules that a translation program uses.
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:48AM (#26540722)
> The proffered solution is to use singular "they" of course

That's subjective.

> allow the person using the translation program to specify pronoun rules

"Translation is the communication of the meaning of a source–language text by means of an equivalent target-language text" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation)

Allowing the end-user to customize the translation according to their own personal biases introduces an entirely different set of issues. We should no longer call it a "translation" at that point.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by slibhb on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:52AM (#26540771)
> That's subjective.

I don't follow. There is an argument out there that we should stop using he/she and default to they (unless informed otherwise). Am I wrong about that? I didn't say I agree with it, just that it is a proposed solution.

> Allowing the end-user to customize the translation according to their own personal biases introduces an entirely different set of issues...

Yes, and allowing people to speak introduces this exact same issue...

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:17AM (#26541130)
> Yes, and allowing people to speak introduces this exact same issue...

It's not the purpose of a translation service - to let people customize the translation such that it fits their own personal biases and sits more comfortably with their world views.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by slibhb on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:31AM (#26541333)
> It's not the purpose of a translation service - to let people customize the translation such that it fits their own personal biases and sits more comfortably with their world views.

A translation service requires user input, spoken or written, which is necessarily biased based on how the user speaks/writes/thinks. The service is also biased based on the data and methods that are used to engineer it.

In my opinion, it is perfectly fine for people to be biased. Whenever I choose to write, I am expressing my personal (biased) view. But when it comes to machine translation, I think it's reasonable to object to bias and so, for contentious issues like personal pronouns, I think it makes sense to allow people to choose.

In other words: there is simply no right way to decide between defaulting to "he", "she", or "they" for third person gender neutral. I use "he" (it's how I was taught and it sounds better to me). Some people would accuse me of phallocentrism or linguistic conservatism, but fine. In modern philosophy, "she" is used. In some circles, "they" is used. I see no issue allowing the user to specify their preferred rule, though it might be technically challenging (I have no idea).

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by BoiledCabbage on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:18AM (#26542058)
> It's not the purpose of a translation service

And I can guarantee you've never used this line of reasoning against translation services performing spelling or grammar checking. Yet those are also "not the purpose of a translation service".

It's always interesting to see the twists people will go to try to use post-hoc justify an opinion.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by riffraff on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:37AM (#26540569)
google translate actually handles this fine if you use a single sentence, showing both interpretations, e.g. "ö szép" shows

"Translations are gender-specific. LEARN MORE"

and both versions

"he is beautiful"

"she is beautiful"

In the past this wasn't the case, AFAIR.

I guess they couldn't just patch a workaround for everything.

I'm also unsure if they should: let's say you want to translate a bit from the gospel "He broke the bread... gave it to His disciples... and He said..".

If you're translating from hungarian, would you have this translated as "he/she" ? It seems more correct to use the original "He" since you can infer from context what it is about.

At the same time, it's clear there is always bias in the training material, and probably "recover original text" is useless.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by coffeefirst on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:36AM (#26540560)
Yes. And because of that, the AI guesses based on the relations it sees most often.

The HN title "Google translate is biased" is misleading, but it's a fascinating example of how AI can encode bias.

It probably doesn't matter if I'm using Google Translate to make hotel reservations when traveling. It matters a lot if you're going to use AI to scan resumes.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by mempko on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:56AM (#26540823)
It doesn't just encode bias but perpetuates it. So yes, the AI is biased.
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by fakedang on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:16AM (#26541095)
It's not the AI's inherent bias as such though. It's the bias of the dataset which has more cases of women cooking and men being professors in Hungarian texts.
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by BoiledCabbage on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:34AM (#26542288)
> It's not the AI's inherent bias as such though. It's the bias of the dataset...

An engineer builds a chat protocol and app on top of UDP. Chat messages between users frequently never arrive and are lost.

When questioned about it, the engineer says "it's not my app that causing the message loss it's UDP that's causing it."

The engineer selected the communication protocol.

To avoid packet loss, I build retry logic into my app, or build on top of TCP.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @12:11PM (#26542792)
> To avoid packet loss, I build retry logic into my app, or build on top of TCP.

What's the "I used TCP instead of UDP" equivalent of a dataset that can be used to build a perfectly non-biased translation service?

Your comment seems to suggest that everybody seems to deliberately choose the wrong datasets which result in racist and sexist products. What should we use instead then?

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by BoiledCabbage on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:34PM (#26545652)
If the underlying layer isn't reliable, build a layer on top to make it reliable.

If the underlying dataset has issues, build a layer on top to address those issues.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by Jasper_ on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:22AM (#26542117)
So AI is taking over the world, and we should just accept that it has severe limitations of just parroting the training data like a Markov chain? This is the algorithm we think can solve everything?
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @12:23PM (#26542979)
> So AI is taking over the world, and we should just accept that it has severe limitations of just parroting the training data like a Markov chain? This is the algorithm we think can solve everything?

"No", to both questions.

These systems are a work-in-progress, constantly improving. They have value, even though they are far from perfect.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by bloak on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:53AM (#26540788)
I think a helpful human translator might use singular "they" in cases where the sex can probably not be known (for example, if it's a reference to a hypothetical person) and there is little danger of confusion with plural "they", and "he/she" in other cases (for example if the person requesting the translation might know the sex and be able to fill it in for themselves).

Those criteria also align roughly with the acceptability of singular "they" in modern British English: a sentence like "everyone should mind their own business" is totally normal and standard and always has been; a sentence like "the unidentified miscreant left their cup on the table" will seem a bit strange to some people; a sentence like "Chris ate their lunch" will seem strange to a lot of people.

I wouldn't expect Google Translate to be capable of such cleverness so a simpler solution would be needed.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by hprotagonist on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:30AM (#26540498)
“he”, “they”, or “one” can be neuter. Each has its pros and cons, because words both denote and connote things. “he” might read as sexist or old-fashioned; “they” does double duty for plural and singular; “one” practically drips with starched-collar stiffness.

“correct translation” is a matter of taste. You’re creating a new work, after all, so there’s some authorial contribution.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:31AM (#26540519)
> “correct translation” is a matter of taste

So, bias no matter what then?

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by hprotagonist on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:33AM (#26540535)
Bias no matter what. It’s unavoidable; languages are ambiguous and you are always, always going to leak out of band information to your audience. (by word choice, accent, font, punctuation, ... )
Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:40AM (#26540611)
Makes sense to me.

I wonder what's the point behind this entire Reddit thread then. More fuel for the fire?

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by hprotagonist on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:45AM (#26540700)
Well, just because there's always _a_ bias doesn't mean you can't influence which one your machine translation system favors.

I'm reminded of one of the early "oh, wow" moments with word2vec (a word embedding scheme), where the statement "King - Man + Woman" evaluates to "Queen". This is not a measure that the system understands anything, just that there are really strong statistical correlations that are preserved in the embedding that let you see how close vectors are to one another.

Necessarily, this sort of vector similarity or word choice probability is a function of (at least) your training data. If you want to stop over-weighting pronoun choice for adjectives like "pretty" and "weak" or "emotional" to be feminine, be more choosy about your training set and don't just snarf up reddit willy-nilly and go brrrrr.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by csmpltn on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:05AM (#26540925)
> be more choosy about your training set and don't just snarf up reddit willy-nilly and go brrrrr

That's a much more interesting (and complex) conversation.

Siphoning raw Reddit/Wikipedia is the closest you'll get to an honest snapshot of our internet-based society (for all of its tremendous flaws).

One could make the case that we don't need an "honest snapshot of our internet-based society" to build a Translation app. But that's debatable...

Being "more choosy" will inherently introduce a different set of biases. Perhaps those biases align more closely with our core beliefs and values - but they serve as bias nontheless.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by hprotagonist on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:28AM (#26541305)
No disagreement here!

One thing that will absolutely raise some people's hackles is pointing out that "intentionally modulating biases in translation techniques" already has a name, and it is "being prescriptive about language usage". I've found that generally, tech/progressive/machine learning ethics folks tend to believe that prescriptivism is the domain of, for example, stuffy old people like Strunk and White, how dare they tell me what is "proper" -- and then turn right around and do just the same with a straight face but don't seem to really realize that that's what they're doing.

At any rate, designers of such systems do need to face head on the fact that machine translation systems at scale both 1. need to reflect usage in the world in a descriptive enough way as to be useful and honest and provide coherent approximations of translation, even sometimes if it's reflecting perhaps unpleasant truths about ourselves we might not like to think about and 2. need to realize that their participation and choices of embeddings, etc., contribute to the corpus of texts in the world as well as reflect them, so their prescriptive choices are also real and will have feedback effects.

Re:Google Translate is inherently biased – An example of an ... by commandlinefan on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:17AM (#26541135)
It seems to me that Google translate is just playing the odds. It doesn't see "he is beautiful" very often (if at all), so it has two possible outputs: "she is beatiful" or "he is beautiful" and goes with the most common one, as it not only should, but must.