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Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by stephvd on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:14AM (#26514244)
If anything, such controversies make me want to get a copy of said literature and read it at the first possible instance. Can I call it the Streisand effect? Maybe.

I have an unsubstantiated theory that this moral compassing at the institutional level (like the article mentions) has gathered more steam after the internet went into our phones and thus became highly accessible to the general public.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by andrewzah on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:38PM (#26515407)
That is exactly the Streisand effect.

My local libraries used to have day/week events specifically to read banned books. I wonder if that's still a thing? If not, publishers/libraries should bring it back as it's a win/win for them.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by npteljes on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:11PM (#26515818)
Social media being in everyone's pocket certainly fueled the fire.
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Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by Koliakis on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:24AM (#26514379)
> As long as you are able to do that, is it truly censoring? No ones burning books here. To say the publishing industry is especially censoring today than before is outrageous. The point is that it self censored in the ethnicity and gender of its authors instead of the material.

I've been trying to get the older Seuss books. They're impossible to get. And if one of them does happen to be available, the prices are astronomical. I do think there's some level of censorship happening here and I get inklings of book burning when I consider how difficult it is to get these books.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by heterodoxxed on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:29AM (#26514453)
| if one of them does happen to be available, the prices are astronomical

Yes, they're out of print and the only people who want them are collectors, so the prices for collectibles are high. That's not unusual.

What are you proposing be done? Force the Seuss Foundation to publish books it doesn't want to publish?

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by christkv on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:48AM (#26514733)
I would prefer that any book that has not been in print for 10 years automatically fall into public domain as abandoned.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by acdha on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:50PM (#26515570)
You’d need some rule voiding publication contracts and reverting rights to the author - otherwise unethical publishers might try to game the system to get works into the public domain to avoid royalties if something seems likely to be rediscovered due to a tie-in or another work by that author becoming popular.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by strictnein on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:11PM (#26515057)
> Yes, they're out of print because the only people who want them are collectors

What now? That's not what's going on here at all.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by heterodoxxed on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:16PM (#26515865)
Typo on my part, should read

| Yes, they're out of print and the only people who want them are collectors

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by cameldrv on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:07PM (#26515011)
The Seuss foundation is free to stop publishing the books. I don’t see how that creates an obligation for Amazon or eBay to prohibit sale, nor for any library that was happily lending these last week to pull them from circulation entirely.

After all of this, it is considerably easier to procure the writings of Adolf Hitler than of Dr. Seuss. That is very strange and wrong.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by acdha on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:46PM (#26515508)
Did anyone say it creates an obligation for Amazon or eBay to ban them? Those companies chose to do so voluntarily under their existing policies, which used to be a thing conservatives supported.

The Mein Kampf comparisons also tend to leave out two key factors: most of Dr. Seuss’ books are intended for children and they’re presented without critical analysis. I don’t think you’d find much objection to the same kind of scholarly work discussing Seuss’ works in the historical context – Dr. Seuss Goes to War being a good example of what that might look like.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by cameldrv on Friday March 19, 2021 @04:53PM (#26518061)
I wouldn't call myself a conservative. Obviously as private companies, Amazon and eBay are able to make rules about what they allow to be sold. I do think it creates a real chilling effect when both Amazon and eBay refuse to sell these books, since they are essentially an oligopoly in book sales.

It's actually the libraries pulling them from the shelves that seems so bizarre to me. I could understand them moving them from the children's section to somewhere else, but to remove them from circulation entirely, and then presumably put a bunch of other books out on the table for banned books week is just strange.

Public libraries have historically been a big institutional force for the rights of free speech and free thought, fighting in court to be able to loan out (and keep secret the names of borrowers) very controversial books. I honestly cannot understand sacrificing those principles and all of that history over Dr. Seuss.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by acdha on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:37PM (#26518365)
It's less whether you're a conservative than that almost all of the people pushing this as a story are, and they're doing it with the intention of politicizing it so you really want to look for primary sources and make sure that critical details aren't being removed.

Librarians are generally quite opposed to banning books and I haven't seen any sign that this is different: some large systems (e.g. NYPL) have said they're keeping them in the general collection and others (e.g. Chicago) have said that they're temporarily removing them from circulation while deciding what to do long-term. I would bet that the major of local decisions will end up being along the lines of either not shelving them in the children's section or having some kind of contextual note for people who request it.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by cameldrv on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:58PM (#26518541)
Well I'm not so interested in the meta-political aspect to this. What I think this shows though is that perhaps librarians aren't quite as opposed to banning books anymore as I thought they were.

It's easy for Chicago to say that they're figuring out what to do long term, but somehow these books were all fine (and in the children's section!) for something like 70 years, and now they're suddenly radioactive.

What this suggests to me is that there has been a shift in values among librarians, and when the publisher made the decision to take them out of print, this forced a reevaluation, and then we discovered that avoiding any whiff of racism is a more important value than free speech. I think that's really sad and depressing.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by wincy on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:29AM (#26514452)
A few days ago they were one of the top torrents on a high seas themed site. I archived them if for no other reason than because I’ve been told that I shouldn’t.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by gregallan on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:46AM (#26514697)
Nobody is telling you you shouldn’t archive them. The publishers decided they weren’t comfortable selling them to be shown to children. I’m personally glad that you’ve helped preserve these once-beloved cultural artifacts. However, I’d hope that anyone would hesitate to give these particular books to children in 2021.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by AlexandrB on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:53AM (#26514795)
It would be one thing if the publisher just stopped printing them. As pointed out in the article they were banned from eBay (a dubious honour achieved not even by Mein Kampf), and removed from libraries.

In terms of giving these to children - I'd argue that this is the parent's decision to make and that there are far worse things we are seem to be ok exposing children to, like advertising or social media.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by pseudalopex on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:29PM (#26516012)
eBay only allows annotated versions of Mein Kampf.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by bryanrasmussen on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:02PM (#26514925)
>Nobody is telling you you shouldn’t archive them.

while technically true this is also essentially wrong, if someone stops selling something for moral reasons then they are strongly implying you are immoral for acquiring the thing they have stopped selling; and it is a necessary component of the immoral that one should not have the immoral, transmit the immoral, commit the immoral or otherwise partake of the immoral.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by MikeUt on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:09PM (#26515032)
> Nobody is telling you you shouldn’t archive them. The publishers decided they weren’t comfortable selling them to be shown to children.

Unless they donated the book rights to the public domain, they literally are telling you exactly that.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nineplay on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:35AM (#26514538)
I've been trying to get a Hugo award winner and the paperback was selling for $400. Sometimes old books are just hard to find. Dr Seuss wrote 60 books, its no surprise that not all are currently publish. You'll find this is also true of Isaac Asimov
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by mcshicks on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:28AM (#26514435)
Did you try archive.org? I was curious what the concern was with some titles and was able to find a couple there.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:28AM (#26514432)
People are buying them to resell to all the chuds. It’s not some grand plot.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by kapp_in_life on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:25AM (#26514387)
>There’s only one nytimes best seller that can exist about a Mexican immigrant

Why is that? Surely if both are well written/marketed enough they could both be bestsellers?

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by moron4hire on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:30AM (#26514471)
Also, it's not like "NYTimes Best Seller" is the gigantic accolade people make it out to be.

https://scribemedia.com/get-best-seller-list/

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by jfengel on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:57AM (#26514852)
It's free marketing -- or at least, a marketing amplifier. Sell enough books and you can get your name in front of a bunch more people. Those people at least know that other people are buying your book.

That said, your link's observation that it's a curated list actually means that it is more of an accolade than merely sales. It means that somebody at the Times wanted the book on the list, which says more to its readers.

It's not much, but when you're trying to stand out in a crowded market, each little bit helps. Popularity has a positive feedback effect, and it's really slow going if you can't take advantage of it. At least for a cycle or two.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by moron4hire on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:50PM (#26515575)
On the other hand, if you can sell the "5,000 to 10,000 copies in a week" that is the supposed threshold for getting notice from the NY Times, do you really need help selling your book? Selling books gets you on the list, getting on the list sells books. Which is the bigger effect?

Given the NY Times growing irrelivance in the market, the high-profile cases of having their list gamed more than once, their ongoing war against their own users with the 3rd party tracking and bullshit they pull over cancellations, I somehow doubt their list is having much of an impact on anyone.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by jfengel on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:21PM (#26515910)
I dunno. I do have an indirect personal experience: a podcaster wrote a book, and asked all of his followers to pre-order it in the hopes of getting on the NYT bestseller list. Which I did, and it did.

I don't know how much that helped, but the underlying logic makes sense. He had a medium-sized niche audience, but their word of mouth wasn't going to sell a lot of extra copies. This put the book out on a world stage. And it just so happened that this particular book (a nerdy exploration of the politics of pre-Caesar Roman Republic) might appeal to the New York Times readership.

That's what the list could be for at its best: a mechanism for breaking out of your niche. I have no idea how many extra books it sold, but it was a meaningful mechanism for trying.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by moron4hire on Friday March 19, 2021 @04:37PM (#26517939)
Does that mean that the list is useful because it's gameable?
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:22AM (#26514333)
If we're censoring ideas based on culture then computers, and cars, and planes, should only be allowed to be used by white men.
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Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:20PM (#26515180)
Who cares who invented it? Do you think babbage designed the fabs TSMC uses now?
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Friday March 19, 2021 @04:21PM (#26517806)
So by your definition, White people can write books about the Black experience because they contributed to it.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:01PM (#26518122)
That doesn't follow from what I said at all. But you pretty clearly aren't trying to discuss in good faith, so there isn't much point in arguing.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Friday March 19, 2021 @11:45AM (#26514676)
Then Black, Asian, or Latin aren't cultures either?

The wright brothers, carl benz, charles babbage, invented flight, automobiles, and computers respectively.

All very white dudes.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by jmkb on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:38PM (#26515408)
"Black" was a label applied to persons of many different cultures in the context of colonialism and slavery. In some places, such as the USA, Black became a cultural identity because it was a legal one; these people and their offspring were governed by a separate set of laws and only legally allowed to raise families with each other.

"Asian" is too broad a term to be much use outside of geography.

"Latin" is a little more coherent, based on both geography and language. It's still pretty broad though; there are common threads but I don't know anyone who identifies simply as Latin.

"White" as a cultural identity is a relatively new invention. Personally I don't see much in the way of a shared culture here. It's problematic for many because in the USA it's been very prominently used by persons and groups who've been opposed to increasing civil rights for non-whites. It's distasteful to others because it represents a flattening of culture -- in my experience, white Americans will generally more readily identify with a particular subset of European heritage and/or with their own state or region. But this may be changing.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Friday March 19, 2021 @03:01PM (#26517123)
I think using skin color as a cultural identity, instead of an actual culture, is a relatively new invention.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by leephillips on Friday March 19, 2021 @01:10PM (#26515799)
I’m not even sure there is a single “white” culture within the US. I mainly see the idea promoted by people who want to absorb some credit for the accomplishments of others. See some of the other comments here, about computers being invented by “my people”.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Friday March 19, 2021 @03:04PM (#26517139)
Skin color is s an arbitrary physiological trait.

There's no bald people culture.

Or innie bellybutton culture.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:05PM (#26518139)
It's not arbitrary when black folk were specifically enslaved and segregated due to the color of their skin, and therefore developed a culture around that shared experience.

If we enslaved people based on their baldness for a few centuries and then kept discriminating against them for another century, I am sure they would have their own culture born from that shared experience.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by nickthemagicman on Saturday March 20, 2021 @12:28PM (#26524195)
See the hole in your argument is that not all Black people experienced slavery.

Southern Black people were the only ones in America that did.

Then if you expand that definition globally...the number of total black people experiencing slavery from white people during that time, was actually the very small.

It's like saying all White People share a culture because the Irish had a hard time during British or American repression.

Your using one definition to support your argument but then saying that definition also doesn't apply to other groups.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by canoebuilder on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:05PM (#26514968)
>white isn't a culture

FJ Haydn spent the bulk of his working career in Hungary, toward the end of his career he went to France and England and received large adoring audiences, not as some kind of exoticism, but because he was/is a giant of European/white culture.

Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people?

Arch, Debian, Suse, etc. are cultures, but gnu/Linux isn't?

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by happytoexplain on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:36PM (#26515377)
>Why would anyone say “white isn't a culture” except to express animosity towards white people?

I truly believe the word "white" does not, in practice, describe a specific culture, or even a specific set of closely related cultures, and I have no animosity toward white people. I don't think that opinion comes anywhere near the "almost exclusively held by racists" category.

Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:17PM (#26515136)
You said it. European culture. PoC have lived in Europe for ages. So, no, you can't say 'European/white', as that erases huge groups of people and is factually wrong.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by DC1350 on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:40PM (#26515423)
This is like saying it’s factually wrong to call Indian people POC because it erases the existence of White British people in India.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:44PM (#26515485)
No, it isn't. British in India were colonizers who sought to divide and subjugate the Indian population. The PoC who live in Europe aren't there to colonize it. They are part of the population and therefore the culture.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by DC1350 on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:52PM (#26515602)
Steve Jobs and Justin Trudeau were part of the culture
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by whydoibother on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:06PM (#26518151)
This makes no sense.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by DC1350 on Friday March 19, 2021 @05:13PM (#26518192)
Therefore Indians are not POC
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by DC1350 on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:12PM (#26515064)
You’re just asking white people to quit writing since a book with 0 minority characters is also going to be criticized.
Re:A new moralism is gripping the literary world by at_a_remove on Friday March 19, 2021 @12:49PM (#26515555)
That's the point, as far as I can tell. An elaborate flowchart is constructed and all paths lead to DON'T, but stated in different ways, so that you cannot see the trap.

Write characters that are not exactly like you: you cannot possibly do this right and have no business attempting it. Write characters that are just like you: where's my representation?

It just needs a speech synthesizer uttering the words "The only winning move is not to play" at the end. Thus, effectively silenced by your own conclusion, other people can take your place. If you point this out, well, hasn't your kind said enough already?