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Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by csense on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:27PM (#26461131)
Military subs have a lot high-tech stealth tech (much of it classified) to hide their electronic signals, engine noise, and so on.

How do these vessels routinely get through, and they have very little stealth tech? If the Spanish / NATO / US military ignores them or can't see them, doesn't that mean actual (enemy) Chinese / Iranian / Russian subs can get away with a lot by pretending to be simple drug smuggling boats?

Maybe the military lets drug smugglers operate, and even ignores foreign governments doing submarine subterfuge like bugging undersea cables or dropping spies / equipment onto shores at night? The purpose of turning a blind eye to be protecting information about anti-sub capabilities, if the drug kingpins or enemy spymasters don't know which of their missions successfully maintained secrecy? Maybe when the anti-sub network alerts successfully, they watch the spies and equipment that lands from a distance with high-tech drones / satellites (or heck, a simple patrol squad with night vision binoculars), follow them for a few months, then tip off the cops (if it's a mere drug cartel) or send counterintelligence to arrest them (in case of actual spies). So the enemy has to guess whether they got seen on the submarine landing, or were compromised by some other means.

That these boats can get through might be a catastrophic failure of anti-sub tech, or it might be part of the normal I-know-you-know game of international espionage. I suppose we civilians wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Perhaps the biggest clue is that drug subs have been a thing for many years, but there's a notable lack of public alarm from military / politicians over it. Given that, I'd put my money on the hypothesis that the military knows exactly what the smugglers are up to, but chooses to ignore it to keep anti-sub capabilities and weaknesses secret.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by overlordalex on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:51PM (#26461299)
Drug smuggling submarines are much closer to pre-world-war-2 submarines than the nuclear military submarines you may be thinking of.

These submarines are essentially boats that sit with almost all of their profile under water, and often may not even be able to submerge at all.

Their purpose is to reduce the visible portion of the boat above the water to the absolute minimum. A small swell is enough to hide these submarines from view.

Noone is especially looking for these as they sound and travel like typical boats

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by jameshart on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:56PM (#26462147)
But surely if you want to just look and sound like an ordinary boat, you don’t need to run partially submerged with waves over your deck and a low profile hull - you could just... use an ordinary boat?
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by lazide on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:05PM (#26462195)
A small boat of the size most governments are going to ignore struggle to move tons of drugs, or carry more than 1-2 people. Which is what these subs are doing.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by hanniabu on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:44AM (#26462714)
Why not have a little dinghy where the operator is and then under the water, like 10ft deep (or deepers, or adjustable length) you have an underwater pod carrying the load along with supplementary motors that are tied into the dinghy's onboard motor?

As an engineer I think this would be a dream jobs to design and built low-tech yet effective solutions for smuggling.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by haram_masala on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:51AM (#26462744)
This is in fact a common strategy. Often the “submersibles” aren’t self-propelled and are basically underwater barges trailing a fishing or leisure boat.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by roel_v on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:53AM (#26464095)
"I think this would be a dream jobs to design and built low-tech yet effective solutions for smuggling. "

If you think engineers are expendable to "regular" companies, wait until you learn how the cartels deal with them...

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by danlugo92 on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:08AM (#26464993)
Got any links?
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by roel_v on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:50AM (#26465448)
A few years ago there was a story on here, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9143784 , I've read some more since then but I can't readily find them (it was over the span of a few years). Maybe they were re-hashes of this story, could be. I do remember reading another story about narco subs some years ago (I too find the engineering fascinating) and one described how the technical work was (at least in that story) done by poor students who were roped in bit by bit until they got in so deep that they couldn't leave, and found themselves stuck in remote South American swamps in horrible conditions. Can't find that story though, maybe someone else knows/remembers?

I don't know anything about organized crime other than what I see on TV, but not long ago there was a local story here about a couple of chemistry students who were put to work in an MDMA lab and got themselves killed because of bad ventilation. From what I can tell (again, this is from following media, I may be wrong), engineering in criminal enterprises is low status and quite dangerous, and not even paid particularly well. Cooks in drug labs get into accidents because of how rickety those labs are, there was an encrypted phone dealer around here who got himself killed when his network was dismantled by the police, the telecoms engineers in Mexico in the story above.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by jki275 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:24PM (#26462311)
reduces radar signature. The higher you stick up out of the water, the further away you can be detected by surface radar.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by brmgb on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:27PM (#26470706)
Surface radars don't work too well with objects very close to the sea. It becomes hard to pick them out from the clutter caused by reflections especially if their size is comparable to the height of waves. That's why floating stray shipping containers are so dangerous to small boats and why sea skimming missiles are so effective.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by jki275 on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:48PM (#26471935)
I've spent many hours staring at a radar scope, and fixing and maintaining those radars.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by Broken_Hippo on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:53AM (#26466724)
Because you want the best of both worlds: The profile of a small boat, and the carrying capacity of something much larger. Hence, large boat that mimicks a small ordinary boat by many measures.

I'm also sure the increase in ordinary boats (which you'd need for carrying capacity) would be noticed.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by victorfonseca on Monday March 15, 2021 @02:25AM (#26463095)
Looks like you understand it better than the police, huehuehue!
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by sudosysgen on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:32PM (#26461172)
Submarines are inherently quite stealthy.

Military submarines need all that tech to be able to hide from active surveillance - I assume no one is staging ASW operations against Narco submarines.

And yes, Chinese/Russian subs can get away with a ton as long as they don't get detected.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by csense on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:39PM (#26461222)
> I assume no one is staging ASW operations against Narco submarines.

Subs on covert missions don't exactly fly flags. I find it hard to believe there's anti-sub tech that can tell if a given vessel is being operated by cartel members or the Russian navy.

Well, yes, if it's a high-tech vessel then it's obviously some nation-state. But if you know your enemy always goes after high-tech subs and ignores low-tech subs, Russia can simply build a fleet of low-tech subs and use them, knowing the NATO commander on duty will take a glance at the sonar readout and say "Ahh it's those drug smugglers again, law enforcement's business, not our problem, we do nothing, boys."

Point is, they should be doing ASW operations against the Narcos, if they can't tell without boarding the sub whether it's the Narcos or the Russians.

While it's probably impossible for the Narcos to build a Russian-looking sub, I'm sure it'd be pretty easy for the Russians to build a Narco-looking sub. And the Russians have quite an incentive to do so if, as you assert, "nobody's staging ASW operations against Narco submarines."

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by mandevil on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:04PM (#26461823)
Errr, this is very different, but not because of the submarine.

Modern ASW[1] is based on the idea that Russian subs come from Russian bases. US and NATO submarines (and airplanes and ships and undersea sonar arrays etc.) pay a lot of attention to those bases. They are constantly looking for anything coming out of those bases, and then they can follow and track them across the ocean. But saying "somewhere in the Atlantic ocean there is a submarine, let's go find it" is not how modern ASW works. Think of it like looking through a telescope- in order to see something you have to shrink your field of view a lot, but when you narrow your field of view you can look pretty clearly at that one spot. The trick is cuing to point the telescope at the right spot. That's where the difference between a Navy and drug smuggling organization becomes clear.

Drug smuggling submarines are, at least as far as I am aware, generally built in situ on random uninhabited spots, by small groups over the course of a few weeks, then sail to another random spot to deliver their cargo (in Latin America they tend to build on the coast, in Europe they tend to build inland and then truck to the coast). They try to avoid busy shipping lanes or other high traffic areas, try to avoid sending messages via radio or anything like that. The whole point is that there is nothing to cue anyone. That's why drug smuggling submarines are different from real navy submarines. Real navies need facilities that appear to satellites, they need training time which can be observed, they need coordination between ships which means communications, etc. Real navies have to deal with their sailors revealing their locations on VK or Strava. Drug smugglers organize their lives so they don't leave any of that. And when they do slip up and someone can cue the police, the coast guard, or the navy, the submarine gets found just like a real navy submarine does.

[1]: With the very important caveat that over the last 30 years the USN has allowed it's ASW capabilities to atrophy, due to the atrophy of the USSR/RU submarine fleet. But, to look at what they did back when they cared about ASW google: GUIK Gap, SOSUS, SURTASS, Classic Wizard. Those were all about getting ASW assets close to Soviet submarines, and then letting them go to work.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by nine_k on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:59PM (#26462498)
A large submarine with a large crew and a serving of nuclear missiles us indeed hard to conceal, because it needs large coastal facilities.

But IDK if a small submarine with little or no crew, small dive depth, and relatively small payload needs all thus. If a nation-state wanted to deploy it, that could be done way more covertly.

Maybe this is not done because it does not offer any interesting military capabilities. Maybe it is done, but we don't hear about it, because it does offer some interesting capabilities which they don't want to advertise.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by TeMPOraL on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:45AM (#26464046)
> But IDK if a small submarine with little or no crew, small dive depth, and relatively small payload needs all thus. If a nation-state wanted to deploy it, that could be done way more covertly.

In a way, this is tautological. Anything an organized crime group does, a nation state can do trivially, by just paying that crime group (or a similarly-sized and skilled legit group).

The right question is, as you point out, whether it's useful for a nation state to do this. Most of the time it probably isn't - cold war is as much about capability as it is about advertising the capability to the adversaries. If the Russians - or the Chinese, or the Americans - aren't bragging about it, they probably aren't using it in a meaningful fashion.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by mandevil on Monday March 15, 2021 @09:52AM (#26466083)
The North Koreans and Iranians are using very small submarines, similar to the ones under discussion here, probably for similar roles (covert infiltration of people and goods). And similarly, operational security is probably the most important part of their mission as well.

The US fills the same need with the Shallow Water Combat Submersible, delivered close to the target by another submarine in a Dry Deck Shelter. But that's because the US Navy has focused on long range operations.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by smnrchrds on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:31PM (#26461979)
> "somewhere in the Atlantic ocean there is a submarine, let's go find it" is not how modern ASW works

I imagine not. The whole world could not find a commercial airliner in the ocean. Finding a small submarine would be much harder.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by s5300 on Monday March 15, 2021 @01:54AM (#26462988)
I wouldn't fixate too much on that line of thought.

Perhaps the capability is there but we didn't exactly want to signal to the world we had the capability of doing so. Tinfoil hat I guess.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by sudosysgen on Monday March 15, 2021 @02:38AM (#26463138)
There's no physically even remotely plausible way for that to work.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by ethbr0 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:54PM (#26462477)
> I find it hard to believe there's anti-sub tech that can tell if a given vessel is being operated by cartel members or the Russian navy.

Passive sonar could trivially differentiate between military and civilian engines in the 1980s. And within those, often fingerprint individual vessels by their machinery quirks / lack of maintenance.

And that was without heavy computer pre-processing.

The more cogent point is: why would navies care?

30' length x 10' beam

Modern diesel / AIP examples are in the 200' x 20' range?

There isn't enough room to put credible military capability on a vessel this size. And if you're going low cost, then you want to go fully UUV and elimate crew spaces and logistics altogether.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by ceejayoz on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:38AM (#26464729)
> There isn't enough room to put credible military capability on a vessel this size.

The USS Cole would probably beg to differ.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by ethbr0 on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:26PM (#26469304)
I think we can agree that the USS Cole incident turned on rules of engagement more than capability.

In a more wartime footing, I don't think a fiberglass boat filled with 500+ lbs of explosive often succeeds in a suicide attack against a 500' destroyer w/ multiple CIWS mounts.

But "American destroyer vaporizing fishing boat that drifted too close" isn't good PR, hence restrictive RoE.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by sudosysgen on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:55PM (#26461337)
ASW is highly targeted, there is no way to try to detect submarines over long distances. So unless they want to spend millions and millions targetting exactly these submarines it won't work.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by brmgb on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:34PM (#26470785)
> I find it hard to believe there's anti-sub tech that can tell if a given vessel is being operated by cartel members or the Russian navy.

Without betraying any secrets, the army can know a lot (I mean a lot) about an enemy submarine by its acoustic signature alone. Picking apart a drug smuggling sub from a military sub is child play provided you can actually hear the military sub which is easier said than done.

> they can't tell without boarding the sub

The USA can't board an enemy sub unless it surfaces. That's not what an ASW operation is.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by maxerickson on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:25PM (#26461556)
Wouldn't inference based on what they are doing and where they are doing it be pretty useful? Like overwhelmingly so?
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by jojobas on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:33PM (#26461174)
Mathias Rust landed on Red Square.

The military are concerned with somewhat different threats than a rusty barrel or cocaine.

I wonder if any drug people ever thought of small unmanned solar-powered boats - these could be even stealthier.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by sterlind on Monday March 15, 2021 @02:13AM (#26463053)
Rust's landing was actually a huge black eye to Soviet military and intelligence. From what I recall, their radar techs reported the contact but the chain of command fell to pieces, especially between handoffs.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by jojobas on Monday March 15, 2021 @08:26AM (#26465170)
His plane has been intercepted and identified as a Yak-12, at which point the military erroneously redesignated him as a flight rules violator as opposed to cross-border intruder.

A slightly different situation, but within the general "the eagle doesn't catch flies" pattern.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by BLKNSLVR on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:16PM (#26461495)
I very much admire the irony of the ultimate conclusion of the long I-know-you-know game: Pure observation; non-interventionalism.

Inability to act for fear of losing the value of the method of information gathering that provided the requirement to make the decision to act or not.

International espionage revealed as nihilism.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by maxerickson on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:23PM (#26461540)
In WW2, the US would send spotter planes out into the Pacific where they knew Japanese boats were, wait for them to report that they had been spotted, and then attack.

So inaction isn't inevitable, it's a choice.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by perl4ever on Monday March 15, 2021 @12:13AM (#26462565)
aka "parallel construction"
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by pjc50 on Monday March 15, 2021 @05:47AM (#26464050)
I think people are overestimating how well the submarine tracking works, and underestimating how noisy the marine environment is. I suspect that modern ASW only works in a moderate radius around the fleet it's supposed to be protecting, and that if you have a sonar sweep of every noise in the Mediterranean and subtract the ones with transponders, that's still hundreds or even thousands of small boats.

Even the surface refugee traffic overwhelms the limited naval intercept capabilities of the Mediterranean navies.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by chrisseaton on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:46PM (#26461713)
I think there’s some confusion here - these smuggling craft are really more u-boats than submarines. They aren’t really comparable.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by Daho0n on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:09PM (#26462212)
They aren't comparable to U-boats either. U-boats could sail over 100km submerged and dive to hundreds of meters depth. These can't do either of those. These are just fancy "stealthy" boats.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by MagnumOpus on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:49AM (#26475497)
U-boat is a synonym for submarine (literally - "undersea boat").
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by rickdangerous1 on Monday March 15, 2021 @04:44AM (#26463752)
Military and intelligence don’t care about drugs. That is someone else’s problem. They would never reveal their capabilities over a mere drug bust.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by Y_Y on Monday March 15, 2021 @10:14AM (#26466308)
Drugs are a great source of cash, as well as kompromat. Can you support your claim with anything?
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by brmgb on Monday March 15, 2021 @07:13PM (#26470554)
> Military subs have a lot high-tech stealth tech (much of it classified) to hide their electronic signals, engine noise, and so on.

Subs have no electronic signals. Water is mostly opaque to EM waves. Small subs are by design pretty silent. It is going pretty hard to pick them up above the noise of the sea.

> doesn't that mean actual (enemy) Chinese / Iranian / Russian subs can get away with a lot

Actual enemy subs can get away with a lot. You can safely assume that both China, Russia, France and the UK are able to launch a most likely successful nuclear strike on the USA as you are reading this. That's the heart of nuclear deterrence.

> anti-sub network alerts

I have bad news for you. It's extremely hard to find a sub. Water doesn't carry sound in straight lines due to heat and salinity gradients. The ocean is full of pockets of silence.

Modern countries have boats with towed sonars and submarines looking for enemy submarines but as far as I know in this game of cats and mouses the ones who want to stay hidden are usually winning.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by lain-dono on Sunday March 14, 2021 @10:02PM (#26461812)
What about narcos working as spies?

What about counterspy? What if one of them decides to make a little extra money running drugs?

We need to go deeper. We can only fantasize about schemes that may never be revealed.

Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by f430 on Sunday March 14, 2021 @11:24PM (#26462308)
what if they purposefully allow narco economies to thrive because of its destabilizing effects? Imagine if US had to suddenly worry about a powerful South American military/economic coalition, it simply wouldn't be able to focus on other parts of the world.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by scoopertrooper on Monday March 15, 2021 @02:33AM (#26463113)
You have to take into account that these vessels are several orders of magnitude smaller than military subs and travel barely submerged.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by sokoloff on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:04PM (#26461395)
I would expect that the subs don’t need to be interdicted directly, but rather just tracked and the land-based operations raided. Not interdicting then directly leaves open the chance to trace both ends of the supply chain.
Re:Narco Submarine Found in Spain by rangibaby on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:42PM (#26461681)
Imagine you’re a NATO accountant planning for a war with Russia.

Which is a cheaper and more effective way to detect submarines in that area?

A. An extensive submarine detection network, with sonar buoys, aircraft, and boats able to pinpoint the location of for anything bigger than a shrimp

B. A few thousand bucks worth of mines across the straits of Gibraltar and Bosphorus