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Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by monocasa on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:34PM (#26449736)
> Q: I've never heard of software "expiring." How is that possible?

What a beautiful world that was

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by azalemeth on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:19PM (#26450094)
In many ways, all of the predictions made at the time in replies to articles like this have come true. Everyone is spying on us constantly; legitimate end-users are absolutely peeved off / made to suffer SaaS and activation crap, and the pirates do just continue exactly as before (albeit with a nice, NSA-provided open-source RE environment to play in...)
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by jamiek88 on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:26PM (#26451161)
>albeit with a nice, NSA-provided open-source RE environment to play in.

Absolute game changer for reverse engineering. It was like leveling up three levels instantly.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by monocasa on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:36PM (#26451239)
I still feel more productive in IDA, but getting to that point was for sure a slog that I wouldn't wish on anyone learning RE anymore.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by jlgaddis on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:39PM (#26452299)
IDA is a godsend compared to when I first started in RE'ing... using SoftIce (DOS) in the early- to mid-90s!

Oh man... +ORC, +Fravia, +HCU, it really was a simpler time back then!

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by toxik on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:05PM (#26451419)
What R E environment is that?
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by nyolfen on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:11PM (#26451461)
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by OakNinja on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:18PM (#26451099)
I logged in just to upvote this comment. Well put.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by Emendo on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:07PM (#26449995)
> A software product could even "seek permission" from the vendor -- via the Internet or your modem -- each time it ran, so that the vendor would know whenever you started the program.

Now it is the norm.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by ReactiveJelly on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:37PM (#26450778)
And better yet, whenever you complain about how invasive it is, someone will appear to take up page space to call you names for wanting things to be better.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by autoexec on Sunday March 14, 2021 @01:36AM (#26453275)
"everybody does it so who cares!" as if the fact that everyone is exploiting you somehow makes it acceptable.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by stjohnswarts on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:17PM (#26451827)
Not just to check for license but also to upload all your activity for their AI to comb through :)
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by tyingq on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:19PM (#26450610)
Pretty sure I remember Sun compilers, Veritas Volume Manager, and several other pieces of software having license keys that expired in the 1990's. Several of them used something called FlexLM.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by tails4e on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:50PM (#26450888)
Flexlm is alive and kicking. All of thr EDA software I use daily is protected by it. Its so archaic I can only assume its been broken seven ways from Sunday, but its still there. Id be interested to know if anyone here knows why it's the de facto standard for on premises software licencing.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by berkut on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:19PM (#26451112)
The reason it became de-facto was it had bindings to C/C++/Java (what most commercial software was written in from the 90s onwards) and worked on all main platforms (including most Unixes). There wasn't much else which provided that in the 90s, early 2000s.

RLM is a slightly more modern alternative to FlexLM which some software has moved to over the past 10 years from FlexLM.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by tails4e on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:21PM (#26451525)
Thanks, interesting to see that this seems like a niche market thats relitively untapped. What seems initially strange is its protecting SW that can be as much as 100k per seat (e.g. ASIC EDA licenses) I'm sure less scrupulous operations are pirating the SW, though perhaps the EDA vendors know the compabies who do pay are honest lest they are found out so a truly secure licensing system is less critical to them.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by kortilla on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:15PM (#26451817)
With most software in that price category, the actual software is a small piece of what you’re paying for. It’s really support, custom features, etc.

Additionally, the potential users that can pay have much bigger legal exposure using the pirated version and just wouldn’t risk it.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by monocasa on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:47PM (#26452636)
I've heard that pretty much the whole Chinese fabless scene runs on cracked EDA tools FWIW.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by kortilla on Sunday March 14, 2021 @07:26AM (#26454440)
For sure, there is no legal risk for them.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by azalemeth on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:28PM (#26451179)
FlexLM is alas still going strong, but even in ~2001 was clearly broken by the pirates [1] -- such are the joys of tech.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20010424155417/http://www.woodma...

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by jandrese on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:20PM (#26452502)
Like all good DRM FlexLM causes no end of headaches for people who actually paid for the product, and is trivially defeated by pirates.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by icedchai on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:49PM (#26451681)
Yes, I remember that. One of my first jobs out of school was a sysadmin for various unix machines (Sun, DEC, HP, and others I've forgotten.) FlexLM was everywhere. Annoying to configure. I'd install it, and have no way to test if it was working, since I didn't actually run any of that software. I'd email some people in another group to get help testing it, and would never hear back. The joys of corporate america. I moved on pretty quick.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by jerkstate on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:03PM (#26451401)
FlexLM was remarkably easy to defeat, though. I did it in about 10 minutes with truss and a preloaded library in the early 00s.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by gambiting on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:36PM (#26449756)
I mean, in 1999 one of the dominant software distribution models was shareware where frequently applications would stop working after some amount of time and demand payment.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by sn_master on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:46PM (#26449839)
With subscription, even continuing to pay increasing amounts isn't a guarantee than the product will remain available once the vendor decides to cancel it. And, piracy isn't an option for developing countries where the software price is over a year's average wage.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by ttt0 on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:24PM (#26450135)
It's never guaranteed, no matter what payment model. There is plenty of discontinued closed-source software from way before a subscription model became a thing that everyone does, and some of it managed to stay alive only thanks to piracy. With subscriptions it's way worse, because it has to rely on a central server, sometimes for no good reason at all, and you can't even do that. It's just bound to happen that the company will pull the plug once it's no longer profitable.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by tehjoker on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:36PM (#26450211)
Back in the day, the license keys weren't checked at a central server, there was some kind of check sum or database inside the software instead. This was wonderful for both pirates and legitimate users for when the company disappeared.

I still remember a working Starcraft CD key (though it later turned out that something on the order of 01234566789 worked).

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by sn_master on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:11PM (#26452146)
I remember my Windows XP QQWD7 serial key too. Even when central server was the default, there was usually still a way to do an offline activation. Nowadays, not anymore.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by aphroz on Sunday March 14, 2021 @12:25AM (#26453026)
I was more a FCKGW kind of user
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by sn_master on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:13PM (#26452156)
Discontinued software can still be usable for a very long time. Proper written applications like Office can work on Windows versions that are decades older than itself, or the worst case continue working on VMs until the end of time, like those legacy apps that are still running from before the 90s.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by forgotmypw17 on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:23PM (#26450647)
my Word 97 still works great (and blows away today's software, both foss and not)
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by sn_master on Saturday March 13, 2021 @09:38PM (#26452289)
No joke. It was one of the first apps I used and in non-European languages its leaps and bounds ahead of most of FOSS today that can't even do RTL right, let alone letter merging etc. And doc files work perfectly with all the modern editors too.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by o-__-o on Saturday March 13, 2021 @08:49PM (#26452035)
WordPerfect 5.1 user here. Nothing comes close on the terminal
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by anthk on Sunday March 14, 2021 @08:00AM (#26454618)
- Groff + Mom + jstar maybe.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by stingraycharles on Saturday March 13, 2021 @03:42PM (#26449813)
The article is referring to automatic expiry of license keys though. Still seems like a rather naive question, I agree.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by Zenst on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:28PM (#26451172)
The World of Open Source, without that enterprise software subscription/licensing per core model flavours corporations can account for and personally I feel with a slight tongue-in-cheek, is a product of accountants came before programmers.

Or home users, in which software doesn't expire, just updates and support does. More a terminology aspect in that way.

Today more things are subscription level, but mostly for content to drive that software.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by dehrmann on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:11PM (#26450025)
serial number

Seems so quaint to think of that as a privacy concern.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by bcrl on Saturday March 13, 2021 @05:08PM (#26450500)
I look back over the last 22 years, and we had very different attitudes towards privacy back then. It's sad to think that almost 2 generations are now growing up without knowing what privacy was, or how much actual freedom there was in being a free range kid with the only obligation being home for supper.

We overestimate the change over the course of a year, but seriously underestimate it over a couple of decades.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by kmeisthax on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:18PM (#26451104)
22 years ago the vast majority of communications were either unencrypted or, if you had a fancy mobile phone, encrypted using weak, ITAR-compliant ciphers. Encryption on the Internet was for e-commerce sites with the budgets for the extra hardware, certification, and compliance needed for SSL, and the protocol was also kneecaped by ITAR outside of the US. Hell, even early DRM systems were laughably easy to break because of export-grade encryption (see DVD CSS).

The primary privacy protection for communications in 1999 was legal, not technical:

1. Police needed a warrant to listen on your communications (or, if they only wanted to know who you were calling, no warrant was needed)

2. Private wiretapping would land you in jail, and required covert access to someone's house, making it riskier to pull off

3. Analog telephone systems (already out-of-date) were entirely protected by a law that made it illegal to provide consumer-grade equipment that could be easily modified to tune to 800mhz. This is still law today, despite the frequencies being unused for analog, and is a thorn in the side of amateur radio.

This could be summed up as "we promise not to spy on you if you promise not to resist us if we change our mind".

An interesting expression of this idea happened with the whole NSA Clipper Chip debacle. Effectively, the US government wanted to move from unencrypted everything to key-escrow encryption, where private citizens would be technically prevented from wiretapping your phones, but law enforcement could still do so. It failed so hard that the US government just stopped regulating crypto export and the NSA retreated to slipping vulnerabilities in crypto standards (e.g. Dual_EC_DRBG, TLS Extended Random).

The actual legal protections I mentioned above melted away under the heat of the War on Terror. The US government adopted a classified interpretation of wiretapping law that boiled down to "if we aren't listening, we haven't spied on you". Effectively, the NSA would wiretap everything and store it securely, and then once they had legal justification to actually wiretap you, they'd open up what they had already recorded. In theory, this is just turning a wiretap order into one issued about 30 days ago. In practice, the "legal justification" part was someone filling out a form in XKeyscore and clicking a button, with no further verification in the vast majority of cases.

It was only after much of this leaked - twice, I might add - that people outside of encryption enthusiast communities actually started taking technical privacy protections seriously. Things like end-to-end encrypted messaging, Let's Encrypt, and efficient cipher implementations that actually made encrypting everything useful are things that people in 1999 could only dream of (except for the above-mentioned cypherpunks). On the other hand, all of this extra security is fundamentally reactionary. We would not be encrypting the whole web were it not for certain Nation-State Actors abandoning their already-flimsy legal protections and going for full-take.

Of course, none of that matters when you were just going to self-surveil and post everything you do to Facebook anyway. But that isn't really all that new. People have always been bad at keeping secrets, advertisers have always been spying on you (before the Internet), and there's hundreds of years of legal precedent concerning when, where, and how much privacy you lose when you open your mouth or go out in public. If there is a difference between the 90s and today, it's that today's technology makes you a lot more aware of when your privacy has been violated. Target may know when you're pregnant before your father does, but Facebook will brag about it to you.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by bcrl on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:34PM (#26451222)
At least there was/is a legal framework under which the behaviour of telecommunications firms was regulated. Exempting "information services" from those regulations is, in my opinion, the biggest policy failure in the last 30 years.

Back in 1999, we didn't have streaming TV services to any real degree. What ads you saw on the bulk of media was not visible to the intermediaries. The internet hadn't descended into the click-addition as engagement, as we hadn't created neural networks tuned towards rewards that result in damage to real world humans. Faked photos and videos required real effort and resources to create, and print media was still a viable funding method for investigative journalism.

The base of technology is neutral -- machines that do math for us are not good or bad on their own. The goals that advertisers and their enablers so heavily fund are goals that can and should be regulated when they cause actual harm to humans. Going "viral" can be a good thing, but when it destroys lives, the platforms that make that happen should bear some level of responsibility and liability for that. That's what feels to me to be the biggest loss of today's internet. It took real dollars to run a smear campaign on someone 20-30 years ago...

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by DanBC on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:25PM (#26451152)
> 2. Private wiretapping would land you in jail, and required covert access to someone's house, making it riskier to pull off

Or people could just access the pole outside the house, or the cab on the street.

Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by icedchai on Saturday March 13, 2021 @07:53PM (#26451703)
Back then, I remember listening to people's analog cordless and cell phones with a scanner.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by bcrl on Saturday March 13, 2021 @06:36PM (#26451240)
Oh what damage I can do in this world with a simple Can Wrench.
Re:Intel PIII: Is Big Brother Inside? (1999) by salawat on Saturday March 13, 2021 @04:40PM (#26450250)
Someone hasn't heard of the German Tank Problem...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem

Further, over time, many authorities have to be repeatedly reminded that User-Agents with UUID's != the user themselves, and every attempt by technologists to cram more UUID on more and more closely held technology with more and more ubiquitous and trending toward always on data streams just makes this threat harder and harder to play down.

You don't need to serialize and track everything. We need to stop doing it. This is also why the systemd machine-id was a step in the wrong direction.