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Re:The puzzle of Europe by mrweasel on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:45AM (#26383849)
It's also an average, someone like Bezos technically raises the average by a lot. It just doesn't make the people working in a warehouse any richer.

For the vast majority of people, living in a wealthy country, where that wealth is more equally distributed, will be much more attractive than living in country with just a high GDP.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by wwtrv on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:52AM (#26383913)
To be fair, if we’re talking about wealth distribution (as opposed to income distribution) many European countries have similar inequality to the US. Some, like Sweden for instance, are even worse than the US.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_...

Re:The puzzle of Europe by mrweasel on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:02AM (#26384006)
I honestly had no idea. That's pretty interesting, I wonder if it's because of a few REALLY wealthy individuals?

Generally you have a lower limit to how poor a person can be, in Scandinavia that limit is reasonably high (I sure it doesn't feel that way if you're actually poor), so I would have assumed that would level out the inequality somewhat.

Denmark in particular have also always excluded students from statistics on who's poor, because it's seen a temporary thing. So we don't see them as truly poor, even if they often are, but I suspect that they have to be included in the Gini coefficients calculation.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by wwtrv on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:33AM (#26384232)
In many European countries you can be "poor" (i.e. have low or negative wealth) while still maintaining a relatively high standard of living. The most expensive asset most people own is their home, so if you rent all your life or have a very long mortgage that you don't necessary intend to pay off (which is not uncommon in some countries) you might have very low or negative wealth. And you might not need to save as much due to socialized healthcare, social safety nets, etc.

Looking at the median wealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...), a median person in Spain is 3 times as "rich" then someone in Sweden and Germans or the Dutch are more "poor" than Slovaks or Greeks etc. But this is largely a result of relatively low home ownership rate in most North European countries.

However if we disregard average people and look just at the top 10% or even 1% Sweden is still Remarkably similar to the US:

Wealth Share of the top 10%/1% *

United States: 75.9% / 35.4% Sweden: 75.3% / 37.4% Netherlands: 68% / 26.6% Denmark: 66.6% / 29.3% Germany: 65.1% / 30.2% Norway: 65% / 32% United Kingdom: 59.3% / 24.5% Spain: 55% / 23.8% France: 54.6% / 22.2% ...

* according to https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/g..., see page 168 in "Global wealth databook 2019" fro the full table

Re:The puzzle of Europe by pwinnski on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:24AM (#26386055)
If I had to be poor, I would rather be poor in Europe.

Otherwise, I would rather be wealthy in the USA.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by hjnilsson on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:18AM (#26384882)
In general, greater income tax leads to greater wealth inequality.

The reason is, higher income tax means it is more difficult to become wealthy. So in countries with high income tax, the majority of wealthy people is those that inherited their wealth. Over time some wealthy people become poor, but with high income tax, even fewer become rich. This means that wealth becomes more and more concentrated among the few, which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

So in the US, wealth-mobility is greater than Denmark for example, resulting in the list on Wikipedia, where countries that are thought of as "unequal" actually are the most equal of all when it comes to wealth.

Article studying the effect: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re:The puzzle of Europe by mrweasel on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:05AM (#26385259)
That doesn't make a ton of sense, research shows that social/wealth-mobility is greater in Denmark, compared to the US, by a lot: https://www.rockwoolfonden.dk/app/uploads/2018/03/Om-social-...

The reasoning is pretty much the opposite, the redistribution of health helps to move children out of their parents wealth/social-class. It might be that an individual adult in the US is able to move from poor to wealthy more easily, but I sort of doubt it.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by tokai on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:59AM (#26383980)
So Russia is the second most equal country after the Netherlands, and Brazil more equal than Denmark? I'm not buying that data.
Re:The puzzle of Europe by zzzpaz on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:21AM (#26384140)
You're reading that the opposite way.

> A Gini coefficient of zero expresses perfect equality, where all values are the same (for example, where everyone has the same income). A Gini coefficient of one (or 100%) expresses maximal inequality among values

Was easy to spot, US and Russia are definitely not at the top when it comes to income equality as both are controlled by oligarchy

Re:The puzzle of Europe by mrweasel on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:08AM (#26384054)
Everyone could be equally poor.
Re:The puzzle of Europe by Paradigma11 on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:20AM (#26384136)
There are not enough oligarchs to make an impact.
Re:The puzzle of Europe by jaspax on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:13AM (#26384091)
I don't think that Bezos, as an individual, has any measurable impact on the US's GDP. The headline number for Bezos is his fortune of $190B, but that's the total value of his assets, not his yearly income. Furthermore, GDP primarily measures spending, not wealth, and I would be surprised if Bezos actually spent even $1B per annum (though this might be different depending on what exactly we count as "spending", as he might make stock trades in that range). In either case, he's having a very small impact on the measured GDP of $21T, something in the range of 0.01%.

Meanwhile, the difference between the US and Europe in the article is around $10K per person--hundreds of times larger than the distortion created by the billionaires.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by antwerpz on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:41AM (#26384273)
GDP measures income, not spending. If someone outside the US spends money on Amazon, and a portion of that money becomes part of Bezos' income, that portion is counted in the US GDP, not the foreign country's GDP.

His income last year was around $60 billion, or $200 per person (of any age) in the United States. While last year was exceptional, all of his wealth ($600 per capita) was income in the last 20 or so years, most of it in the last 10. And his ex-wife Mackenzie Scott kept 25% of their combined wealth when they separated.

So it's simply not true that his contribution to GDP looks completely trivial even when compared to total US GDP.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by jaspax on Monday March 08, 2021 @06:08AM (#26384447)
Every source that I can find says that US calculates its GDP based on the "expenditure" approach, meaning that it measures spending, not income. Eg: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.asp

Secondarily, capital gains is not really the same thing as income (at least, not in the tax code, and also not in GDP calculations), and most of his $60B "income" is increases in Amazon stock price. And even if it were actual cash income, the GDP difference between the US and Europe is still fifty times larger than that.

Look: I was an American by birth, but I moved to Europe as an adult. I get the attraction, and I'm not trying to bag on Europe. But it's simply false to suggest that America is not overall richer than Europe, or to say that America's extra riches are all concentrated at the top.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by antwerpz on Monday March 08, 2021 @06:33AM (#26384623)
You're confused about how GDP is calculated.

The GDP difference between the US and Europe is fifty times larger than one rich person's own income? This isn't actually a great argument dismissing the suggestion that US wealth is extremely concentrated.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by dsnr on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:18AM (#26384880)
> His income last year was around $60 billion

Are you really counting the increase of Amazon stock price as his personal income? This is totally inaccurate. Most of that worth is extremely volatile and can quickly dissipate if the stock price falls for whatever reason. Would you count a falling stock price as spending?

Re:The puzzle of Europe by antwerpz on Monday March 08, 2021 @08:50AM (#26385659)
I don't think you read the whole of my comment.

Amazon aggressively reinvests its extremely large and stable earnings into the business which Bezos owns a large part of and controls actively. Both he and his ex-wife have realized extremely important liquid wealth by selling a significant part of their stakes. How would you measure his wealth?

Re:The puzzle of Europe by dsnr on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:38AM (#26386205)
I read your whole comment and am very interested in seeing a source for how Bezos earned $60 billion last year as private taxable income. The fact that amazon (not even Bezos) re-invests a large part of the corporate income has nothing to do with distorting the US GDP per capita, as you claim. I would like to see a more solid argument.
Re:The puzzle of Europe by pwinnski on Monday March 08, 2021 @09:27AM (#26386091)
One way might be measure his total net worth last year vs this year. You'd be subject to the vagaries of the stock market that way, but given that most of his wealth is paper wealth, that seems fair.

Certainly Amazon revenue is not the best way.

Re:The puzzle of Europe by emilsedgh on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:48AM (#26383877)
Exactly for that reason, I wish it was a median not average.
Re:The puzzle of Europe by kzrdude on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:53AM (#26383922)
GDP is not computed from anything that's split on individuals, GDP median over people does unfortunately not make sense. (Not in the way that median disposable income would, for example).
Re:The puzzle of Europe by throwaway210222 on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:09AM (#26384071)
GDP isn't even measured in the same way in different countries.

1. The USA gifts itself > $6 trillion in imputed values. Or about the GDP of Japan;

2. If China measured their GDP using the formula used by India, its economy would be significantly larger;

3. Nigeria overtook South Africa literally overnight by changing (amongst other things) the value of unpaid child care.

Its largely are ruse to make public debt look sustainable.