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Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by _cs2017_ on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:17AM (#26383034)
It's a bit hard to imagine the domestic opinion in China supporting a hot war with Taiwan. Unless the Taiwanese leadership decides to commit suicide by a cop and declares full independence, I suspect the Chinese public would be very uncomfortable with civilian deaths in Taiwan.

Nationalistic fervor is strong, but the mainland Chinese consider the Taiwanese to be Chinese as well. So bombing Taiwanese targets would feel not very different from bombing Hunan or Sichuan province.

A blockade, on the other hand, would be far more acceptable domestically. And I fear that means a greater likelihood of the US involvement: the US public (and therefore the administration) may not have the stomach to defend Taiwan from an invasion, but they might feel they cannot stand by when American cargo ships are prevented from moving freely in the international waters.

On a side note, it's hard to believe that in the 21 century, when people are on the verge of manned flights to Mars, we still have a truckload of terrorial disputes all over the world (Taiwan and the rest of the mess in the South China Sea, the Northern Territories of Japan, Senkaku islands, the Chinese / Indian border, the Middle East, Crimea, etc.).

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by SirHound on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:42AM (#26383176)
You think Mars will be any different once a second country lands people there? It’s going to be a nightmare.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by BLKNSLVR on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:13AM (#26383317)
Having read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy and watched the Mars docudrama on Netflix, I'm afraid you're probably right.

Second country may be equivalent to second 'corporation'.

I'm not sure what the ISS model is, but at least that has been working well for a while.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by dogma1138 on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:20AM (#26383351)
The current season of For All Mankind deals with this too, gonna get interesting.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:28AM (#26383396)
And of course The Expanse has been showing us that even if Earth was to do away with nations, the space colonies will just create their own.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by SirHound on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @07:32AM (#26398183)
I think it'll be facisnating to see how long America can hold the pretence of its Mars colony being "American" before history repeats itself.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by dirtyid on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:15AM (#26383326)
PRC-ROC is unfinished civil war with a literal countdown timer (2049). Reality is reunification with Taiwan is the ultimate political get-out-jail-free card for any Chinese leadership. It doesn't matter if PRC is democratic or authoritarian, taking Taiwan will supersede and overshadow any large domestic issue that could undermine legitimacy. And PRC will face many in the coming years. If she successfully negotiates them, then missing the 2049 deadline itself will be overwhelming issue determining legitimacy. PRC moving on Taiwan is inevitable, even the mildest forceful reunion option (quarantine) could lead to total-war because that's just how escalation spirals.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by _cs2017_ on Thursday March 18, 2021 @01:06AM (#26499833)
This type of "deadline" to invade Taiwan has been "discovered" repeatedly. For example, look at this article from 2017/10/05 in https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3268316:

"According to a book published on Tuesday titled "The Chinese Invasion Threat" by Project 2049 think tank fellow Ian Easton, Beijing has finalized a secret plan to invade Taiwan by 2020, according to classified documents from the Chinese military obtained by the author, reported the Washington Free Beacon."

Much as I love Taiwan, let's not pretend this is anything other than propaganda. Only goes to show that bullshit can be produced by pro-Taiwan analysts just as well as by pro-Beijing analysts.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by wbsun on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:58PM (#26389089)
Why 2049 is a deadline? Mind elaborating? I don't think there is any agreement on when a reunion must happen.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by dirtyid on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:19PM (#26393544)
Centennial anniversary of founding of PRC. 2049 has been been implied as the latest deadline in enough official political communications over decades that reunification by then is a matter of legitimacy, especially on subjects like sovereignty that CCP is firm on.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Rule35 on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:40AM (#26383475)
This is the USA's Poland.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by r00fus on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:39AM (#26383156)
Why is it hard to believe? That’s human nature. We fight over territory just like most other mammals.

That we could rise above our very programming is exceptional (like the Mars lander), not the norm.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by geoalchimista on Monday March 08, 2021 @02:42AM (#26383174)
> It's a bit hard to imagine the domestic opinion in China supporting a hot war with Taiwan.

Have you talked to any Chinese people who are not from Shanghai/Beijing and are not educated in an American university?

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by rtpg on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:05AM (#26383285)
Have you? Most people aren't like "yeah let's go slaughter a bunch of people" in general. It's basically the null hypothesis!

And the "common person" understands who will be on the frontlines in any war, and who will be completely out of danger.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by fermienrico on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:14AM (#26383320)
I’ve spent months in China and often rural areas. What you’re saying is definitely not true, I’m not sure how to convince you though. I don’t remember specific stories.

Nationalism is helluva drug.

Just look at the HK situation.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:27AM (#26383392)
If you offer anecdata you need to actually offer anecdotes because they at least provide additional color and texture to a discussion. Did rural Chinese evince willingness to go to war with Taiwan? Did they say they would be fine with civilian casualties of fellow Han Chinese and others speaking the same languages as them, with the same culture as them? Did they say anything similar about Hong Kong? For all of the depredations happening in the latter, the bodycount is quite low, which would not be the case in a war with Taiwan.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by fermienrico on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:22AM (#26383692)
I recall indirect discussions with the locals. Basically job related "Would you ever move to Taiwan or Hong Kong?" and even "Would you move to United States?". This is to fresh graduates (~1-2 years into the job). The answer I got was resounding no, with further explanations involving the progress of China and how amazing the government is at getting rid of corruption and removing obstacles for private enterprises.

You could sense a tremendous amount of optimism and nationalism lurking behind their opinions. I could not open any discussion criticizing CCP, that wouldn't have gone well. Also discussed military strength, fighter pilots (oh they really wanted to be one of those guys) and some discussion around religion or lack thereof.

FWIW, these were outskirts of industrial towns in China. In Sichuan region mostly which is pretty different than Beijing , Shanghai and Shenzhen.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Koiwai on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:05AM (#26383606)
China rural area is kinda like red states in the US.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by rtpg on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:37AM (#26383454)
(I am not an expert on any of this)

HK is a police action, a difference in degrees with what countries in Europe and the US do from a layperson's perspective. Like "dealing with rioting people who are trying to subvert the system".

Now one could say "_in reality_ it's the same cuz of all the agreements with HK etc." And I'm inclined to agree. But the optics of police arresting rioters vs.... what? dropping bombs on military forces? Images of boat inspections + being turned away?

Even the US, it could barely stomach the idea of a ground invasion of Syria, despite _all_ the sort of things that would make it easy to sell to people (despite the absolute atrocity that it would be).

China has much less experience selling wars to people, and all the "disadvantages" that come with pop culture covering war, and on top of that it's not even the "heathens" halfway around the world!

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by kenneth on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:49AM (#26383513)
A key difference is that Taiwan independence is a LOT more important to the US' strategic interests than who runs Syria. Taiwan independence matters to the USA in that it helps contain China. Syria, despite Russia's meddling, has no such importance to the US.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by nsonha on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:28AM (#26383397)
Americans didn't get headlines that read like that when the US send troops to Vietnam, Afganistan etc (maybe they did and the US started those wars anyway).

And Chinese press is much more censored.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:35AM (#26383448)
Wasn't the Vietnam War broadcast live on television?
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by simonblack on Monday March 08, 2021 @07:18PM (#26393536)
Certainly was, practically every night on the News.

It ended in a mad rush to get out of the US Embassy using helicopters landing on the Embassy rooftop. https://www.itourvn.com/blog/the-last-helicopter-out-of-saig...

Since then, reporters have been either banned or restricted in their reporting in the US's recent wars. The Armed Forces don't want people to see their failures, and develop another Anti-War Movement as in the 1970s

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by nsonha on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:45AM (#26383491)
Has it not happened anyway?
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:51AM (#26383525)
Sure. Though one could argue that a Sino-Taiwanese war would be at least different because both sides involved would be largely co-ethnics of the same culture, and a fraternal war is more complex than imperial wars.

That said, the most civil wars end up pretty bloody anyway.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by nsonha on Monday March 08, 2021 @05:27AM (#26384180)
> both sides involved would be largely co-ethnics of the same culture

That's the Vietnam War, it's pretty similar, just instead of the North Vietnam alliance (with USSR and PRC), now it's just PRC

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by petre on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:45PM (#26388863)
Different than what, the Korean war? Vietnam? The American secession war? Just brainwash the people with propaganda and they'll support it.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Monday March 08, 2021 @04:22PM (#26391766)
Those were all existential civil wars, though. Those wars threatened core territory and were very much in the face of the people involved. Those wars determined the fates of those nations far more than securing one wayward province. And both the ACW and the Vietnam War had its share of war protesters and resisters who were morally opposed or didn't see a reason to get involved.

An aggressive war on Taiwan would couple the conflicted feelings of a fraternal struggle with the civilian comfort of America's Cold War and War on Terror imperial adventures. Would middle class Chinese in the big coastal cities be completely fine with seeing or at least hearing about people pretty much just like them getting bombed across the Strait? Or would they view it as an unnecessary, gratuitous, extravagant, waste of life and treasure?

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by nsonha on Monday March 08, 2021 @10:31PM (#26395121)
You brought up a good point. The Vietnam War (I kept using this example because I'm from Vietnam myself) happened because the North who pushed for it was poor and misled with propaganda.

With China and Taiwan, both are well-off and their citizens would not need to risk their livelihood if not necessary.

However, China seems to be following the path of America who's such a powerful bully that they can start wars left and right without any retaliation on their soil, save for 9/11. If that's the case, this logic won't apply at least to the China side, and again, propaganda.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Apocryphon on Tuesday March 09, 2021 @02:43PM (#26403108)
Yeah, China attacking Taiwan unprompted would have shades of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Throwing around hegemonic weight. I just wonder if the common people will have different opinions of it from the government's. The distance between the two countries is far less than the distance between the U.S. and the Middle East.
Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by Rule35 on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:37AM (#26383455)
> Unless the Taiwanese leadership decides to commit suicide by a cop and declares full independence

Suicide by cop is pretending to draw a weapon.

Your example is closer to, in America, refusing to be breathalyzed and demanding to be tested at the station.

Re:US-China War over Taiwan: All Measures Short of a Cross S... by nsonha on Monday March 08, 2021 @03:01AM (#26383267)
it's abit hard to imagine the domestic opinion in America...

also is it hard to imagine a government doing something against its people's will?