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Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by wodenokoto on Sunday March 07, 2021 @05:44AM (#26374805)
I wish these things came with examples.

I'd love to hear more about how a culture that doesn't name children under 5, do their child rearing and generally go about their life.

Also, who registers to a website, but doesn't have a name?

At some point you need to choose an identifier if you want to interact with other people or their services, and you might even need to conform your identifier to something that someone can comprehend and reproduce.

And at that point most of these falsehoods disappears.

Illegal characters? Yes, you can't write your name as じゃわØÆÅ?+ on your boarding pass. No, your name on your boarding pass won't match your name in your passport, because the name in your passport conforms to whatever writing system in use in the country of your passport and the boarding pass accepts only ASCII letters.

And airports still runs 24/7.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by m_mueller on Sunday March 07, 2021 @05:56AM (#26374865)
That being said, I’d at least expect airlines from countries with latin alphabet to support extended latin charsets. Not doing so just complicates things. My name is Müller. This can be translated to basic latin as Mueller (which e.g. is my passport). No English speaker gets that, thus most systems just replace ü -> u, and create confusion in the process as then the name does not match the passport anymore. And that’s just German, probably the closest language to English. I can’t even imagine the troubles of Vietnamese people, whose language got romanized by a Frenchman, to spell their names so that American programmed systems don’t trip up. A little more flexibility in thinking about languages would do American tech companies good IMO.
Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by dathinab on Sunday March 07, 2021 @06:26AM (#26375008)
> Illegal characters?

Except that in some cultures names with illegal characters (depending on what you see as illegal) are on your passport. And some other cultures might not have passports.

The simplest reason is that not all names can be mapped to unicode.

Which for a lot of software don't matter as supporting non-unicode names is not worth it.

But if you are a government or some system used by one, or some other institution where you can't just randomly turn down some people from being registered in your computer system this is a potential problem.

Lastly there are systems which can contain fictive or historic names so じゃわØÆÅ?+ might very well be a name.

The only sane way to handle names is to handle them as opaque blobs which you display and maybe do a (fuzzy) search on but not much more.

Never _ever_ use names as any form of identificators in _any_ computer systems as they are both highly imprecise, unstable in time, unstable in context and unstable in interpretation.

(E.g. the same glyph sequences might be the same name or not depending on some historic context specific to the person using the name including weather or not the name is used in a way where it is "imported" into a culture, how people might have moved between cultural context in their live time and the live time of their ancestors and other factors. This is so extremely specific to the person using the name that there is absolutely no way to handle this (besides asking the person in question)).

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by bedatadriven on Sunday March 07, 2021 @06:41AM (#26375081)
That's one of patio11 points, I don't quite get: in 2021, _are_ there names which can't be encoded as unicode?
Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by dathinab on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:00AM (#26375205)
Yes but very few as far as I know.

There are also names which have no written form.

Also as far as I remember there are cases where there are multiple "forms" of the same character which theoretically should be purely cosmetic but over time the same name with some of it's characters in different forms has developed different "meanings" which for countries in which the "meaning" of a name matters is a relevant difference.

But as they normally don't mean anything different they have the same code point in unicode and (had when I read about it) no modifier to denote the differences either.

So while this names can somewhat be written they would have to be written in a form which can be seen as degraded by the person having the name and as such forcing them to do so might be seen as mean, impolite maybe even slightly insulting.

Sadly I don't have a reference to the article anymore. Also I don't remember the languages this appeared in but I think it was related to mandarin but I'm not completely sure.

Still the technical overhead of supporting non-unicode is massive and in general not worth it for nearly any application. Exceptions include historical use-cases cases and government use-cases. Also unicode strives to cover "all there is" so it might be "fixed" by now in some form or another.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by pdw on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:54AM (#26375492)
I've heard that Unicode doesn't encode many rare Chinese/Japanese characters that only occur in personal names. In practice these people are forced to change their names. Here's an example: https://www.reuters.com/article/oukoe-uk-china-names-idAFTRE...
Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by anoncake on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:38AM (#26375730)
And if so, what can you do? Store a picture?
Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by dathinab on Monday March 08, 2021 @12:03PM (#26388132)
It depends on your use-case.

For most companies I guess you would just ignore it as any alternative would be not worth it by a far shot.

For some special cases using the private use area(s) + a db storing images of the glyph + auto generating a font including glyph generated from the images could be one solution. Another would be to force people to change their names.

For other use cases (e.g. historic) storing a Unicode "approximation" of the name and a picture for the name (full or parts of it) can be a viable alternative, allowing you to generally just have Unicode but still store the information which was discarded when approximating the name in Unicode.

Also trying to extend Unicode can always be a option.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by gfour on Sunday March 07, 2021 @06:42AM (#26375087)
> I'd love to hear more about how a culture that doesn't name children under 5, do their child rearing and generally go about their life.

(Christian Orthodox, majority) Greeks don't name babies when born, only when baptized (usually during the first year, but could be later). Until then, they appear on formal documents as either "male"/"female" or as "AKO" ("no first name"). In practice, people either call a baby "the baby" or may sometimes use the (future) name informally.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by bradknowles on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:15PM (#26381070)
The Catholic Church here in the US (at least, in San Antonio) will give you a second middle name at the time of your Confirmation. At least they did, back in the 60s.

My wife has a second middle name that you don’t usually see, not even on most official documents. But it is a part of her full legal name.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by 4ggr0 on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:40AM (#26375422)
European websites and services usually don't cause any issues for me.

But lots of US websites and services don't like the "ë" in my name and tell me that it's an invalid character.

Yeah, seems like I have an illegal character on my passport, thanks for telling me.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by laurent92 on Sunday March 07, 2021 @11:39AM (#26377290)
And autocomplete doesn’t work without accents: Ke... doesn’t suggest Kévin in @mention systems.
Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by dontchooseanick on Sunday March 07, 2021 @06:57AM (#26375191)
> I wish these things came with examples.

Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno Crispín Crispiniano María Remedios de la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz Picasso : https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso

See ? First name ? Last name ? 2 components ? Uppercase ? Having faulty but tolerant systems does not mean they are right

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by ben_w on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:34AM (#26375394)
1/2/3/4: a friend of mine uses her maiden name professionally, her husband’s surname for things like bank accounts

5: Middle names are common but optional in the UK, I have one but my dad had two.

6: my full name, including middle name, is longer than the default space available in most paper forms which gives you separate box for each letter. String together any three 8-character first/middle/family names for same effect

7/8: In 2002, Richard James changed his name to “Mr Yellow-Rat Foxysquirrel Fairydiddle”, in exchange for a pint of beer.

9: Ἑλένη, نهاد وديع حداد, 蔡英文, ⴰⴳⵍⵍⵉⴷ ⵎⵓⵃⴰⵎⵎⴷ ⵙⴷⵉⵙ, …

10: Would الملك محمد السادس / ⴰⴳⵍⵍⵉⴷ ⵎⵓⵃⴰⵎⵎⴷ ⵙⴷⵉⵙ count? Or is this about mixing rather than having multiple variants for different character sets?

11/12/13: I don’t know how to even find examples

14: “-son” is a suffix?

15: “Number 16 Bus Shelter”, New Zealand: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/number-16-bus-shelter-violence...

16/17: same problem searching as 12/13

18: I need help with this one too

19: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Abraham

20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mononymous_person

21/22/23: Back in my first job, one guy called Mark Thompson had to collaborate with another guy in the same company also called Mark Thompson. Neither of these two was the Director General of the BBC, the author, the DJ, the newscaster, the reporter, the chemist, nor either the Arizona or Minnesota politicians.

24: China’s, what, 20% of world population now? Lots of rich Chinese people around, you probably do want to be able to support them.

25/26/27: likewise

28: probably has happened, given what people are like

29: Migration also happens (I am one)

30: I assume this is about going between character sets? In which case: is “Colin” transliterated as in the American (Colin Powell) or the British (Colin Firth)? Lossless has the same issue in the other direction, but it’s harder to give examples

31: Bad words for programming safety:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RachelTrue/status/136546161897747...

https://www.wired.com/2015/11/null/

Rude surnames in English include: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicks_(surname)

32-36: I don’t know anything about this, beyond that it can happen surprisingly late

37: Chinese citizens living in America, with a Chinese state database entry with their actual name plus something in America that doesn’t support non-ASCII which has a crude attempt at a transliteration.

38: Depends what you mean by “well designed”. Starbucks’ coffee-writing is pretty infamous for the amusing errors, and that’s without even getting as far as bits.

Then you have the extra problem of the difference between the ü character (U+00FC) and u+(combining diaeresis (U+0308)).

39: wherever you’re from, most people are from elsewhere.

40: same problem as 11/12/13

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by raverbashing on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:42AM (#26375433)
18 is easy.

It might be related to collation. Are ü and u sorted together? ß? Æ? Is Å its own letter?

Is it John Smith or Smith, John? Is there a Canonical Ordering?

Chinese seems to go by $FamilyName $GivenName as the "canonical order". French people do use the regular order but in some occasions do write it as FAMILYNAME GivenName

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by anoncake on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:52AM (#26375818)
> French people do use the regular order but in some occasions do write it as FAMILYNAME GivenName

The EU also likes to do this, perhaps so HUNGARIAN Dude isn't called "Mr. Dude".

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by ben_w on Sunday March 07, 2021 @07:51AM (#26375478)
My confusion there is not that an ordering needs to be chosen, but why, if you make a choice, that choice wouldn’t be capable of consistency.

Which is what I think the original list is claiming.

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by raverbashing on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:38AM (#26375729)
I'd say it's because the order varies between cultures and you might have them mixed up on your system

Not only ordering but equality. So for example Müller and Mueller might be considered equal in German.

Edit: Just found an interesting example, Linkedin orders Á after Z (where the correct in most places would be to sort it together with A), after that, letters in different alphabets (correct) then the emoticons (well, people do add that to their names...)

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by anoncake on Sunday March 07, 2021 @08:47AM (#26375791)
"Müller" and "Mueller" are actually different names. But if umlauts aren't available, "Müller" should still be represented as "Mueller", "Muller" would be just wrong.

Ordering also depends on the context. Usually "ä" is sorted like "a", but in lists of names it's sorted like "ae".

Re:Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names (2010) by justAnIdea on Sunday March 07, 2021 @05:55AM (#26374857)
Yep. This article is kinda pretentious to be honest. Most people writing software know these, they just ignore (or work around) some of them due to the complexity of implementing them (cost/benefit doesn't make sense here).