News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by tmnvix on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:38PM (#26219003)
I feel like the various policies have been consistently applied here in NZ.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by dbtc on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:26PM (#26219540)
Some things we can all learn from NZ:

* respond quickly

* remain consistent

* be an island with <6 million people

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by shalmanese on Monday February 22, 2021 @01:05AM (#26221356)
What can we learn from Vietnam?
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by pfundstein on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:55PM (#26219190)
Australia's state leaders have been steadfast in their handling of the pandemic despite the Federal Government initially fighting the states' swift and strict response.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by ojhughes on Monday February 22, 2021 @02:27AM (#26221765)
But what’s the exit strategy for NZ? Unless borders remain closed indefinitely I can’t see zero COVID to be maintainable in the long term.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by AndrewBissell on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:41PM (#26219039)
Island countries are a special case. Hawaii has similarly been able to keep cases down to a small handful, at the cost of tanking the tourist economy on which the state depends. To achieve the same level of screening in a country with large land borders like Germany would require truly draconian travel and trade restrictions.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by raymondh on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:13PM (#26219392)
Hawaii has been open to tourists for a while and it is working out well. Every new arrival has to have a negative coronavirus test and must enable contact tracing software for the duration of their stay. Restaurants and whale watching excursions are limited to a fraction of the original capacity, but they are open. People wear masks on the beach but not in the water. Mostly, it feels pretty safe. The daily case counts in Maui over the past few days could be counted on your fingers.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by aksss on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:34PM (#26219617)
I think the point of being in Hawaii is to be outside, with predictable steady breeze and lots of UV. Parts of Germany (and many other places in world) are quite a different environment (predominantly indoor with recirculated air and little sunlight. Sigh. Why do we live this way, raymond?)

Also, Kauai did go on lockdown forcing every arrival to quarantine for 14 days regardless of testing status after they had a local COVID death. That policy was in early December, but I think they’re back on the general state plan now.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by AndrewBissell on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:52PM (#26220994)
Kauai requires a negative Covid test to pass a phalanx of National Guardsmen when you enter, plus a 3 day stay in a bubble resort at the end of which you must test negative again to leave quarantine. During my recent stay at one bubble resort the rules were quite lax and it was easy to mingle with people who were not under quarantine. Contra the parent, it is definitely not the case that people are wearing masks on the beach (nor should they), although they are generally still required in all other indoor situations except restaurants. I think you are right that outdoor settings and ample sunlight are important factors in Hawaii.

Conditions are still dire for the tourist industry even after things have opened back up a little bit. Just today I saw a headline in a local Kauai paper about small business owners organizing a meeting to agitate for loosening some more restrictions to help keep them afloat.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by obtino on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:54PM (#26219175)
UK is an island as well. It's not a special case then?
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by d_theorist on Monday February 22, 2021 @08:25AM (#26224204)
UK has 10x the population and is a global hub.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by zwily on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:00PM (#26219262)
UK didn’t immediately lock all borders tight.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by olliej on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:52PM (#26219154)
Australia got it under control, and when they had surges in some states but not others they limited interstate travel until the overrun states got it under control.

The US and Europe could have done this. England could have done this. They chose not to and exchanged a month of pain for a year of pain and 100s of thousands of deaths.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by zwaps on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:28PM (#26219559)
Germany is probably the least comparable country here. It's smack dab in the center of Europe, has a population density of an entirely different magnitude, and is - most importantly - surrounded by some countries that do not take Covid seriously for whatever reason, and it can not easily close the border, which also doesn't physically exists anymore, because it is a huge political thing on multiple levels from local to EU.

Germany is more locked-down internally (like Australia and NZ) than it is on its outside borders.

Is it a mess? Yes. Should it be done better? Yes.

But honestly, if Germany was an Island, it would be doing just as good as Australia and NZ. It locked down internal travel several times, had one of the best contact tracing when it was still possible, and generally just got outplayed by new strains swamping through land borders that neither NZ nor Australia even have.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by aksss on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:47PM (#26219743)
> US could have done this

No, absent martial law being imposed by the feds, this was never an option. The US federal government is not legally able to do the same things that unitary nations like South Korea and Australia can do on a whim. States delegated certain limited powers to the feds at inception, and reserve many, while affirmatively proscribing the federal government from doing specific things. States in the US are not simply local administrative bodies, they are essentially mini-nations that have out-sourced certain shared services. I’m speaking generally of course but that’s a better way to understand civics in the US vs some other (most?) countries. As a consequence of this system, states bear a lot of responsibility for their own policies. What do you think the tolerance would have been (or still is) for Joe Biden, much less Trump, declaring martial law? About zero, I’d suspect.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by boatmansloth on Sunday February 21, 2021 @09:18PM (#26220005)
The federal government didn't close the state borders in Australia, the state governments did. Australia is a federation just like the USA.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by jandrewrogers on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:34PM (#26220579)
In the US, the States are explicitly prohibited from closing their borders as a matter of Constitutional law. For different reasons, neither the States nor the Federal government are allowed to prohibit free travel between the States. This has been to the Supreme Court many times, it is mostly settled law at this point.

The right to travel within the US, like free speech, is near absolute. The due process hurdles to temporarily remove that right from an individual are very high; you can't do it with an edict nor de facto travel restrictions by abusing regulatory power (which has also been tested in the US Supreme Court).

Australia has significantly weaker individual freedoms than the US. This is one of those cases where those differences become apparent. Everyone asserting that the US should restrict travel like everyone else is ignoring that it is expressly illegal for the government to mandate such at thing in the US. No one in the US government is interested in dealing with the backlash such an attempt would elicit.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by boatmansloth on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:37PM (#26220592)
> In the US, the States are explicitly prohibited from closing their borders as a matter of Constitutional law

This appears to be wrong: https://www.justsecurity.org/69770/can-governors-close-their...

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by jandrewrogers on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:04PM (#26220725)
No, that is selective quoting of case law in support of a narrative. There are significant due process hurdles and evidentiary standards of "threat to public safety" in this same case law that are ignored here because they are inconvenient to the argument but nonetheless part of that same judicial precedent.

A thorough reading of that case law makes it plain that the proposals with respect to COVID would never pass judicial muster. In fact, there is considerable case law where attempts at such prohibitions were rejected outright but little curiosity in the above link as to the conditions and circumstances that caused the courts to throw them out.

The government knows that the courts won't allow them to cherrypick and selectively quote case law. It isn't an accident that every State in the US, across the entire political spectrum, came to the same policy conclusion regarding freedom of travel.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by boatmansloth on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:20PM (#26220812)
I dunno dude, the guy is a law professor. Do you have something more compelling for me to read instead? No insult to you but right now I'm running in to the 'guy on the internet has opinions problem' I hope you'll understand.

This guy from Yale thinks the same as the first one I linked:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-18/in-a-p...

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by creato on Monday February 22, 2021 @02:45AM (#26221868)
Even if we assume you are right, how do you think this would work out in practice? Many police in the US won't even enforce mask mandates, you think they'll enforce travel restrictions on literally thousands of state border crossings? Most of these border crossings barely even have a sign indicating them.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by aksss on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:14PM (#26220430)
GTK, I didn’t appreciate the level of independence possessed by the Australian states. Unsure of how AUS states locked down - nonetheless, getting six states to agree on something is easier than 50. Point stands that the US could not lock down travel between the states, and it would be impossible to get the states to agree on mutual border closures.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by boatmansloth on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:25PM (#26220519)
The states didn't agree on anything - when a state had an outbreak other states independently chose to close the border to them and administered border passes until the outbreak subsided.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by markdown on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:45PM (#26219092)
A border is a border. You need permission to get across a border.

It's not more draconian to restrict cross-border movement in Germany than it is in New Zealand, Fiji, or Mali.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by Arainach on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:52PM (#26219150)
Hawaii and New Zealand have a fixed number of points of entry - airports for the most part, as well as a very few select ports (not that those are a major concern with recreational cruises shut down globally).

Land borders are continuous with far more access points (spreading any testing or resources thin) and much more traffic due to lower cost and easier access.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by quicklime on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:28PM (#26219558)
The flight route between Melbourne and Sydney used to be the second busiest in the world (not sure what is like now with the pandemic). There are a lot of people moving between the states of NSW and Victoria.

But during outbreaks in both cities, there were border closures which included not just airports but also roads on the land border which is about 1000 km long. This protected one city from cases from the other.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by markdown on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:18PM (#26219455)
Surely you jest?

Does Germany not have an army? It's one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

They can definitely show down the borders any time they want. See this from a year ago: https://www.gov.si/en/news/2020-03-20-germany-limits-the-num...

> and much more traffic due to lower cost and easier access

The traffic only exists while there is a high chance that people can cross the border. Close the borders for everything but cargo, and there will be much less traffic.

People will make up all sorts of excuses, but in fact anything is possible if you take the risk seriously enough.

I mean if COVID killed everyone it infected instantly and turned them into zombies, how soon would you see every way into Germany guarded?

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by zwaps on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:38PM (#26219652)
I generally think more can be done.

But your post is simplifying much. Every way into German is literally all of it, except small parts in the North which are sea. Germany is all land border, essentially. Too much to control with any army. Ask Americans how that wall with Mexico is going. Like that.

Also, when Europeans speak of border posts, they mean some scanners on otherwise open highways. However, this doesn't mean that there's some sort of restriction outside of these border posts. Shutting them down doesn't mean anything is closed or whatever. You can cross into Germany literally anywhere. There are no borders, not in the way that you think.

When I was on the wrong side of the Dutch border soon before a local lockdown during a shooting, but was in a hurry, I just went through a village road.

Heck, there's even towns that practically cross borders. How are you going to control every street?

Right now, borders to several countries ARE closed. Does it stop most people coming to Germany? Nope.

There are also political considerations that are too complex to discuss here. Livelihoods across borders depend on coming to Germany, as well as a lot of pan-EU traffic. An overreach is likely shut down by courts, in the worst case by an EU court, which opens a new can of worms.

It's not as easy as you think.

Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by markdown on Monday February 22, 2021 @03:33AM (#26222142)
Thank you. I appreciate the correction.
Re:Germany, once a model, is swamped like everyone else by p... by read_if_gay_ on Sunday February 21, 2021 @07:53PM (#26219163)
If you live near a land border it’s not unlikely that some of your friends or family are on the other side of it. No such thing in Hawaii.