This means that there is a strong social safety net, and we take care of the vulnerable. I do not have to worry about the cost of my medical care or other social needs. I pay my taxes, do my part as a citizen, and I know I will be taken care of.

Essentially, because of this I do not have to live in fear.

I basically chose my field of work due to the need for health insurance, as an American. When I was at university, some semesters I was basically going to university just to keep and maintain health insurance, when I was sick beyond belief. It was unbelievably stressful. I never would have needed to do this if I was a Croatian citizen at that time.

I also do not have to accumulate huge amounts of wealth to ensure I am cared for, like I would in America. I do not have to be on a hamster wheel that never stops spinning, due to the principle of solidarity.

I simply get to be free. I do not have to work a job just for benefits or for pay. I do not have to work long grueling hours.

Anyways, the best country to get EU citizenship in, usually for people on here is Republic of Ireland, which permits dual citizenship. You can get citizenship there in 5 years. Besides getting Freedom of Movement rights to live/work/retire in the EU/EFTA (minus Lichtenstein), you also get rights to live/work/retire in the UK, due to treaties and historical ties.

Also, most people here are skilled workers in tech. In Ireland, for many people here on this site, you can get a job visa to Ireland relatively easily, without a skilled worker test (which means that the Irish employer has to demonstrate that they are not taking a job from an EU citizen by hiring you--the documentation required can be harsh for the employer), as there is an exemption: https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do/Workplace-and-Skills...

I know the safety nets you're referring to, they're there for health care, unemployment and worker rights. Things that don't really exist for most people in the US if they're unemployed or in a regular job.

I'm lucky to be in a well paid, high lucrative job even if I have to pay the highest taxes in the US (Which let's be real, are little compared to the EU).

I have a Romanian passport so it's easy to jump over the pond but I'd love my US residency and all the years I put in to be able to start switching jobs more easily. I don't want a ridiculous amount of wealth but I'd love to have a head start and secure financial freedom for my family.

One of my friends just left Munich for Colorado, he said houses are still too expensive in major German cities and salaries too low. He was working remote for a SV company and making big bucks for EU standards. I keep hearing how I'll just have to swallow a tiny salary compared to SV wages if I move to any EU country, Switzerland included.

I guess I have to get to the point where I'm ready to leave the consumerism behind, be happy with extra vacation / free time and "unprogram" every bad habit I learned while living in the US.

That is 100% totally understandable, and is basically the American dream, as you know.

No matter what, as soon as you can: After you hold your green card long enough, make sure to naturalize as a United States citizen. A lot of green card holders never bother to become US citizens. I always encourage people I know to do so. But, generally speaking, once you are a citizen, you are a citizen: it can never be taken away from you. We need people like you and your family as US citizens.

I would get a lawyer, but many lawyers can be sketchy. My best advice would be to go to the Embassies of Switzerland/France/Germany/Canada/UK/etc. to the US websites' and go to their "legal advice" page. There usually is a PDF list of American lawyers. On there, it will specify their area of practice. Obviously, you want an immigration lawyer.

Lawyers can be sketchy, so you need to vet them out for any possible red flags, such as "positive counter-reviews", "any bad reviews", or "painting an overly perfect picture of oneself". If they are involved in commerce associations or any sort of business association (especially if it involves complicated laws or situations), this can be a good sign, as they have to get along with others and just get stuff done in general. From there you make a list of prospective lawyers, email them, and go from there. I would also ask for references, both on a professional level and from actual clients, too.

I value the point of citizenship and passports but getting the US one seems to be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't ever see yourself moving back to the US. I know for sure if I leave, I'm not planning to retire anywhere in the US so it would be a tough sell to go for citizenship.

Sorry, but this is not true at all.

I was being dead serious about suggesting that you might as well naturalize as a United States citizen.

You are already liable for US taxes for at least the next 10 years abroad, from the date you have been judicially determined to have abandoned your green card. You do not acquire this status by not fulfilling the requirements of your green card, either: you need to fill out an I-407 form or a Letter of Intent to Abandon Residence Status. Then, at some point, you receive a judicial determination and have to pay taxes for the next 10 years to the US, from that date, while abroad.

See: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/visa-green-card-hold...

The worst part is that due to FATCA, they can literally seize your bank accounts that you hold abroad.

Anyways, this is a good overview for "playing your cards", with respect to pensions and taxes, while abroad, as a green card holder or an American: https://www.goldinglawyers.com/green-card-holder-foreign-inc...

So I can't find this mentioned anywhere in your link or online. That's the first I hear of it, do you have a source?

There is an expatriation tax if you've been a GC holder for 8 out of 15 years, which I haven't been so I'm fine to leave without any hassles of worrying about taxes.

I don't see the point in US citizenship, I have 2 other strong citizenships that cover all of my needs, unless I decide to stay in the US.

It looks like I don't want to stay in the US long enough to make citizenship worth it, right now.

See: https://americansoverseas.org/en/knowledge-centre/when-are-y...

These are the most important headers to look at:

* US Income Tax: How to Relinquish the Green Card

* Form I-407 or Letter of Intent to Abandon Resident Status

Both of my parents were American accountants, and my father was a CPA. So, I guess I have a different outlook on taxes. I do not see them as a big deal except for the fact that I take paying my taxes very seriously, and obviously I do my best when giving information. I always pay them on time. But, I just look at it like "paying my dues to society", whether or not I actually agree with it--which in this case really does not matter--as it is due, legally.

I am just stating this from purely a personal perspective, so please do not be offended. I know we all have different feelings about being taxed, double-taxed, etc.

By the way: I am not afraid of renouncing my US citizenship, even though I am culturally American and it would be harder to access my family.

The only reason why I do not: I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system. One of them I nearly died from, and is considered to be very rare, with case reports and small cohorts, at best, in the literature. The disease I have was discovered via National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant funds, given to the Mayo Clinic, in the early 2000s. Ultimately, as problematic as the US is, they saved my life, along with the few thousand people diagnosed with this illness worldwide.

The only thing that pops up time and time again is the expatriation tax which only applies if you had your GC for 8 years.

I'm really sorry about your neurological diseases, it's such a shame US healthcare is in shambles for the general populace.

Naturalized citizens can lose citizenship if it is determined they lied on their application. This is unlike those who inherited citizenship via birth.

Thanks for pointing this out as it is very important information to have vs. everything we hear about Germany being "the best place in the world" and "you don't need to buy property as everyone here rents".

If you can't buy now, with "significant disposable income", will you be able to buy later? That is, if you care for home ownership at all.

FAANG/SV engineers could buy a home pretty much in any major city after some years in the industry. I have heard that is not the case in Munich, Frankfurt, Zurich, etc...

But, as said by others, comparing raw numbers is pointless. Even if we spent the 2/3k that are left each month, we'd still have health insurance and pension paid for by our taxes. We aren't forced to build so much wealth to weather bad times because proper insurance is built in the system.

What domain are you in if you don't mind me asking?

So there is much more focus on soft skills, such as leaving a good impression, properly selling your work so that the client is happy, securing future collaborations with them, and so on. And, on the flip side, hard technical skills are not that important: as long as you can produce something that works in a reasonable time and sell it well you will be fine.

Did you check e.g. levels.fyi?

Unfortunately not true. Just because some FAANG in the area will be able to pay you €150k+ TC, doesn't mean all local companies will automatically try to match that. You might be surprised how wide the TC gap is between FAANG & Co. and local players who might laugh in your face if you ask for more than €80k. Simply put, most EU companies can't match such levels of pay but will have no shortage of talent.

It also gets hairy once you compare pre-tax (US Salaries) with post-tax (EU salaries) and different costs of living.

I use a combination of levels.fyi, Payscale/Glassdoor plus Numbeo / Nomadlist to keep running the numbers around how much I could save by moving elsewhere.

Are you sure you're in the same Croatia as the rest of us?

I’m eligible to work anywhere in the EU but the pay in continental Europe seems much worse than what I could earn working remotely for a US company.

You've got recognisable names like Microsoft, Amazon, Stripe etc, but also a large amount of tech jobs in staid banks and insurance companies, as well as a fairly healthy amount of startups and other small and medium sized enterprises.

Pay is good. Assuming your housing situation is ok, you can have a decent career and a stereotypical comfortable middle class existence - mortgage, car, a foreign holiday every year (with 20-something days of annual leave per year) and the possibility of putting your kids through college without either loans or maintenance grants.

Beyond pay, and not getting too far into social safety nets and GINI coefficients etc, it appears to be common to get fired with no notice in the USA. That level of insecurity is rare in Ireland, and pretty much unheard of in any office job.

Yes, salaries are low all across the EU (Switzerland is not in the EU) and taxes are high, so ideally I recommend working remotely and bouncing between Portugal and Spain or finding a post retirement hobby (easier said than done).

(By the way I did consider Croatia too as it is similarly inexpensive, but Romanian is an easier language and I already knew people here from previous travels).

Portugal seems a great in between if you can swing a remote job, a lot of tech workers prefer it for the low cost of living and climate, like you said.

It seems working remotely is the best option but I'm not sure how feasible that is long term and with timezone differences.

Overall, for most of the population, yes. However, if you're a tech worker, no, as that puts you in the top %10 of earners.

In many ways, Romania is like the US, high inequality, low taxes, and poor quality social services, unless you have a corporate job, then you can live like a King as the huge pay(relative speaking) and job perks give you an edge over everyone else.

This made me chuckle, I often compare California to Romania (since I know both places well) and can contrast the corruption, money waste, terrible infrastructure and inequality in a way that friends / family that moved from Romania can't agree with.

They always paint Romania as a third world *hole that's incomparable to the US/Canada or other "civilized" countries.

I follow the news, political developments and have friends there so I'm aware how far it's gotten in the last 2 decades, I'm pretty proud of the direction they're heading in.

The only caveat I have for you with living in RO vs the US is the healthcare system. Even if you opt for private care, the really good doctors, the emergency procedures that need to be done in public hospitals are a disgrace. At least in the US if you "live like a king", you can pay for a king's level of healthcare.

In RO, you literally have to fly to Germany/Switzerland or elsewhere to get quality healthcare and if you have a really bad accident, you may not make it to the hospital to get the care you need.

That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.

> That's the one thing keeping me from moving to RO today, even with its extremely low cost of living. I can't risk my family's health on the disastrous healthcare system there.

I have the same issue here in Croatia, and I spend a lot of time on the islands. There is no such thing as medivac (air rescue) here.

The solution to this is to get an International SOS plan, which covers pre-existing conditions. I know all about this because my sister was an expat living in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, Equatorial Guinea (Africa). If one became gravely ill there, you would be medevac-ed to Munich, Germany. Hers was an employer sponsored plan though.

You only have to declare one of your nationalities (as in citizenships) when filling out the forms, and I confirmed that this was proper procedure (you can also reside in the country of your nationality under the terms and conditions of the expat plan). I declared myself as a United States citizen. You also state where you plan on living the majority of the year (Croatia). The expat plan is something like $750/year, which may seem expensive. However, if the incident is severe they will also repatriate you back to your home country of citizenship. In my case, this would be the United States. I want to be repatriated where my family is, if I get gravely ill.

If you get very sick in Croatia and need to be medevac-ed out, they fly you to Vienna, Austria.

Here are where the "expatriate plans" are: https://buymembership.internationalsos.com/expatriate/

For healthcare I'd just plan to go to Poland for serious care. As for consumerism, you can't beat the US for Amazon Prime, craigslist, or ebay (my personal favorite).

The only thing that's cheaper here in Cluj is housing. Food is slightly cheaper depending on category, but many things are more expensive. Including gym memberships.

Hard to plan to go to Poland for serious care if you have a life threatening emergency. If Romania figures out its healthcare problem, it could be a serious contender for me to live in, in the future.

Check out Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. These places pay incredibly well and once you factor in the cost of healthcare and general quality of life, the US looks like a bad joke. These three countries’ job market is accessible with a Schengen visa.

Is that true? I'd have assumed that EU citizens have access, but non-EU would need to apply specifically for FL/CH work permits.

(and I'm not sure, is there actually a EU-wide work permit for non-EU? I had the impression that each country is still handling non-EU permit separately)

(tourist visa are different of course)

Same goes for CH nationals who want to work in the EU.

My comment was really about non EU+ nationals. If you get a working permit as a 3rd party national with no treaty with EU, in eg Germany, can you just move to Spain and work?

Bear in mind that wealth is relative. The differences in cost of living are dramatic between countries so a much smaller wealth in one country can be much larger in another.

Insurance for the future. Maybe I get bored of software, maybe I want to take a few years off and not have to work. Maybe I won't be able to "unprogram" the consumerist habits I picked up in the US and will fall back into buying things I don't really need (like Hi-Fi, photography equipment, gaming rigs, TVs, etc...) and will need funds to continue doing that.

I don't know, I guess I spent too much time in the US and deeply concluded that it's better to have wealth than to not have it. I have a lot of reflection to do.

Even adjusting for cost of living, if I bring $1M over to the EU, I couldn't stop working for the next 50 years, I would need a few for $xMs for that.

If I move to the EU now and take a hit in income, that will become impossible.

If that is true, it's more than I thought it would be and I think if you found a good job you enjoyed, making 80k EUR/yr on top of having $1M saved could give you a secure financial future.

[1] https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Germany/

$30-40k/yr, pre-tax, would still be ok for one person in Portugal / Spain or other lower cost of living places, right NOW. Once you add in a spouse, children, things start to get hairy.

Once you consider that these places are currently undervalued and their cost of living could increase dramatically in the future, that $30-40k/yr no longer seems as safe.

I would personally aim for $2M+ to feel safe that I won't have to be forced to work a job I hate for the next 30 years.

"Some people are so poor that all they have is money."

(I'm not advocating curtailed wants or frugality. My life is pretty comfy and I like it that way.)

Real estate is much more expensive in major European cities compared to US major cities (income-adjusted), and is taxed a lot on top of income taxes. And rural real estate is much cheaper in the US both absolutely and income-adjusted.

Vehicles and fuel are more expensive here too + again major taxes. Traveling by public transport is reality only in major German and French metropolitan areas, you need a car everywhere else as soon as you need to cross the city border at least semi-regularly.

And yet not even coronavirus tests are free here, as opposed to many places in the US.