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Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by legitster on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:29PM (#26173840)
It's kind of crazy that power plants are competing with consumers over a shared energy source: natural gas.

You can use it to heat your home, or you can send it to a power plant to convert it into electricity and heat your home at a 3x markup.

But regardless, you are relying heavily on a single resource in a single state.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:43PM (#26173956)
The trick is that a natural gas furnace needs a decent chunk of electricity to operate, and we’re not very good at shedding all non-critical residential load. So it’s really not an either-or proposition for as long as we use natural gas for power, it’s a both-or-none situation.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by throwawaysea on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:53PM (#26174027)
The majority of the energy use in a natural gas furnace is still the core heating of air functionality. The electric ignition and fan aren’t most of the energy to my knowledge, although “decent chunk” is a fuzzy term.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:36PM (#26175354)
Obviously the blower and controller don’t consume anywhere near the amount of energy that gas delivers, but it consumes more than most people think. The blower on a typical furnace consumes 75-400W per hour of operation, depending on whether or not it’s a single speed or variable speed type.

400 watts per hour isn’t a huge amount of power, a space heater consumes about 1,300 watts per hour, but it’s still a pretty decent chunk of electricity. A deep discharge marine battery (common for cheap backup power) could keep a larger blower running for maybe 3 hours tops, assuming an unreasonable 100% discharge and 100% conversion efficiency. So, not a lot, but still something that you’d need some pretty specialized backup gear to run.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by lukeschlather on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:04PM (#26174130)
I have an oil furnace, and when I was looking into it it sounded like setting up a battery backup that could allow me to keep the fans running through a power outage like this would probably be more expensive than replacing the oil furnace with an electric one.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by rootusrootus on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:38PM (#26174400)
If you have to use a battery, then that's probably true. But then again, once you have an electric furnace, the battery requirements are going to go up far more dramatically.

As an anecdote, my furnace blower pulls about 11 amps on 120V AC. So I can run it with a little 2000W inverter generator but won't have much spare capacity for anything else.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:57PM (#26174070)
Natural gas fireplaces don't need electricity to work, though, and they are fairly common in some parts (maybe not Texas, but Ontario). But they're not very efficient, either.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:01PM (#26174105)
Some do, some don’t. Depends on how they’re designed to handle ventilation and heat distribution. Quite a few that I’ve seen are fully sealed and can’t be started without power. A lot of these are really for looks and not heat.

For backup heat generation nothing beats an EPA certified wood burning stove, especially the free standing ones.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by banana_giraffe on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:40PM (#26174409)
I was surprised to learn when I moved to a cold climate that some gas water heaters can operate without electricity. Modern ones use a small piezoelectric igniter to light a pilot light.

Probably obvious in retrospect, but took a bit of brain rewiring to realize no-power != no-hot-water given I had mostly dealt with areas with electric water heaters with fairly small tanks up till then.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by adolph on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:58PM (#26174965)
I’ve been wrapping my head around it too as that’s how our hot water heater works even though the gas-using furnace doesn’t work in a blackout.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:51PM (#26175497)
I understand your surprise, but the difference is understandable when you think about how each system needs to operate. It's a matter of thermal mass, location, and complexity.

Both a hot water and a forced air furnace work by burning natural gas to heat something up until it's hot enough. In both cases the combustion is separated from whatever its supposed to heat by a chunk of steel, and the gas is simply burned in open air without any extra compression. Ventilation is usually done via convection, which works without power. So far, so good; both cases just need a small amount of power to open a valve and kick off combustion. The similarities largely end there though.

In the case of a hot water heater, the flame is heating a big slab of metal under 40+ gallons of water. It's very hard for this slab to overheat and get damaged, as water is both thermally dense and a great conductor. There's also no need to move the heat around; the flame is literally right underneath the thing that needs to be heated. This proximity also makes the control logic extremely simple; you turn on the flame when the tank is too cold and turn it back off when it isn't. This consumes a tiny amount of power, and you can use the heat generated by the pilot light to keep such a circuit alive.

A furnace on the other hand has an issue. While burning gas in a furnace is easy, getting that heat back up to where you need it isn't. Air is a pretty terrible thermal conductor, and without some cooling that combustion chamber is going to overheat and get damaged. You need to move a lot of air past the combustion chamber to get the heat away before that happens, which means you need a powerful fan to get that air moving. These fans consume a lot more power than you can reasonably generate locally, about 75-400W per hour, with an extra spike needed to get the fan moving in the first place. You also have the issue that it's not possible to measure the outcome of the furnace at the furnace; which means you're going to need relatively complex remote sensing and control devices, which only adds to the system's total power needs.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by throw0101a on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:23PM (#26174277)
Yes, they do need need electricity. Source: I live in Ontario, Canada, and am currently being kept warm by one.

Most (gas) furnaces are forced air, and how exactly would the fan run without electricity? How do you think the thermostat runs its thermistor (and probably LCD display) without a power?

The Technology Connections YT channel has a recent good overview, "Forced-air Furnaces: The What, Why, and How":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBVvnDfW2Xo

As for efficiency, you can get units that are 99% efficient (AFUE):

* https://www.lennox.com/products/heating-cooling/furnaces/slp...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_fuel_utilization_effici...

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by luma on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:02PM (#26174573)
I have two gas fireplaces, neither use power (nor have any available). Valves and safety is handled via millivolt thermopiles in the pilot light and main flame. Heating happens via convection through ducts that run from below to around/behind the fireplace itself, then out over the top. It passively moves a fair amount of air and can make the room uncomfortably warm if left on too long.

I have no idea if this is common or not, but I know of at least two counterexamples to your statement here in Michigan.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by rootusrootus on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:36PM (#26174376)
> Yes, they do need need electricity.

Some do, some don't. Mine has a pilot light and a thermocouple. I used it to keep warm while our power was out for three days this past weekend.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by mark-r on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:54PM (#26174511)
I wouldn't be surprised if pilot lights aren't illegal now. They're terribly inefficient, more so if your furnace rarely lights.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by rootusrootus on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:40PM (#26174820)
I think pilot lights are still pretty much standard on certain appliances, like water heaters and fireplaces. Probably deliberately so they can run without power. All my other gas appliances are electronic ignition, e.g. we have to use a lighter to start the range when the power is out.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:26PM (#26175791)
In the case of gas fireplaces, all of the heat generated is used, so I would think it would be perfectly efficient. As long as you shut it off during the warm seasons, anyway.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by throw0101a on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:43PM (#26174434)
What's the make/model? Presumably not forced air?
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:32PM (#26175828)
The house I live in has two gas fireplaces, both 20-30 years old. They work in the same manner described above, with no requirement for electricity. Each one also has a blower that is simply plugged into the wall (one runs continuously, the other is thermostatically controlled; both are very loud). The blowers are optional, and the house gets adequately heated even when they are off.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by rootusrootus on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:38PM (#26174804)
Not sure about make & model, I'd have to find the paperwork from when the house was built 8 years ago. It's radiant, not forced air. That's an option I could add but it would require electricity for that part.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:53PM (#26175524)
GP said fireplace, you're talking about furnaces. Plenty of fireplaces don't need power, but I've never seen a forced air furnace without power, and I don't think it's possible.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:45PM (#26175919)
Gas fireplaces generally do not require electricity and many have no fans. Exhaust is passive, and thermostats use a thermopile that generates a small current from the heat of the pilot light. The pilot light is started manually with a piezoelectric starter, or a lighter.

Gas fireplaces are slightly less efficient than high-efficiency furnaces because some heat goes out the exhaust.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:53PM (#26174025)
Which seems crazy to me. How is it cheaper and/or more efficient to create an entirely new system of gas pipes to every home so consumers can each inefficiently burn gas than simply converting the gas to electricity in a highly-efficient centralized plant and send the energy over the existing electrical infrastructure?
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by cameldrv on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:18PM (#26174245)
A modern gas furnace is very efficient, 95% or so. Really efficient gas power plants are only about 60% efficient. If you use the electricity to run an electrical resistance heater, it's more efficient to burn the gas directly for heat.

If you use a heat pump, you might get a COP of 3 or 4, which is effectively 300-400% efficiency. It's able to do this because it makes the outside colder while it makes the inside warmer.

Overall, the electric/heat pump system can be more efficient, but it has a lot more complex and expensive machinery, both in the home and in the power plant, and it's only been in the past 20 years or so that this has been practical. Many new homes are being built without gas hookups and use heat pumps instead.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by someguydave on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:35PM (#26174365)
when I looked into this for my house I found that gas was more like 10x cheaper than electricity. So a 3-4x efficiency advantage for a heat pump still made no economic sense
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:08PM (#26175641)
Depends on where you live, and how you get your electricity. Where I live, Idaho, electricity is very close to beating out gas for heating.

My gas costs $0.51 per therm, including distribution. When I consume electricity (more on that in a sec) it costs me $0.085 per kWh. On a straight therm to kWh basis, electricity is ahead.

But a single therm is equivalent to 29.3 kWh, so on an energy equivalent basis we've got $2.49 worth of electricity per therm of gas. So for 100% efficient electric radiant heat, electricity is about 5x more expensive than gas. That's close to the efficiency band of an air source heat pump, which tends to run in the 200-300% efficiency range, and geothermal might just beat out gas per BTU transferred into the house, especially if you include hot water consumption in that.

The extra complication is solar. Roof top solar is getting cheaper every single day, and for some of us the effective cost of electricity is $0. If you've got a rooftop solar system it's kind of silly not to switch over to electric heating if possible, since you can get your electricity cheap. Especially if you have net metering or a backup battery. If I didn't have a really high efficiency furnace in my new house, I'd probably have already done that.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by someguydave on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:58PM (#26189937)
But the appropriate price of solar is not 0 but the present value of the capital expended to build your system.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:28PM (#26198857)
Correct; unfortunately I can’t price that effectively for my specific house since I bought it with the solar, and can’t separate the numbers out cleanly.

That being said, we know that in the long run rooftop solar reduces electricity cost, because otherwise most people would never buy it. From my numbers above rooftop solar only needs to reduce electricity prices by ~40% to put them within striking distance of a heat pump being cheaper than gas.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by fomine3 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:27PM (#26174311)
Weird solution (or upselling by gas company) is co-generation system (power and bath warm water) at home. That's Available in Japan for a decade, it even use fuel cell.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:12PM (#26174200)
A central generator plant may be more efficient than a house furnace. But electric heat is 1/3 as efficient as natural gas. I suspect it's a net win for gas heat, as modern furnaces are 80+ percent efficient.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by ashtonkem on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:59PM (#26174090)
You’ve got it backwards on the efficiency front. Burning gas for heat at home beats out most forms of electric heat efficiency wise.

A basic gas furnace is 80% efficient, with a nicer condensing unit being 96-98% efficient. Meanwhile most gas turbines hang out in the 32-38% efficiency range, plus transmission losses. Maybe if you’re using a heat pump and your local power plant is a triple pressure high efficiency model (~60% efficient) you might end up ahead, but for most users in most municipalities it’s actually better to burn the gas at home directly rather than at a power plant, at least for heat.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @11:21PM (#26175736)
Wow, I had no idea gas power plants were that inefficient. And I suppose it's a lot harder to turn natural gas into heat to produce electricity with turbines at a power plant, which is then sent to homes to turn back into heat with resistive heaters than it is to just send the natural gas straight to the homes in the first place. I didn't consider that those extra steps would add up to such a high loss.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by pfdietz on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:09PM (#26174171)
And one can imagine home cogeneration that would produce power at the same time it heated the home.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by adolph on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @10:08PM (#26175075)
The electrical infrastructure isn’t 100% efficient or reliable.

https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

I’d call them semi -complementary from a consumer perspective and have different strengths and weaknesses, similar to phone and cable before.

My long term view is gas will go away first as electric costs go down and reliability goes up with local caches such as the PowerWall. Eventually usage will be light enough to cut the cable from long distance generation for close range neighborhood nukes.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by lawkwok on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:02PM (#26174111)
I recently submitted an article, which after I read it, made me think the same thing. We could’ve had cleaner indoor air and fewer points of failure if just used electricity.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26128180

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by jerkstate on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:40PM (#26174413)
Gas predates electricity. See: George Westinghouse
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by Spooky23 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:05PM (#26174137)
Gas is very efficient.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by sp332 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:41PM (#26173945)
In Texas' usual weather, an electric heat pump would be much more efficient than burning the gas for heat directly.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:43PM (#26173962)
Prescient post from November 2019 about transitioning Texas to heat pumps and the benefits of doing so.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/a-texas-sized-g...

> According to a paper from Pecan Street, an Austin-based energy research organization, the transition would reduce climate-warming pollution, save Texas households up to $452 annually on their utility bills, and flip the state from a summer-peaking to a winter-peaking system. And that winter peak would be “nothing the grid couldn’t evolve to handle,” according to co-author Joshua Rhodes.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by throwawaysea on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:11PM (#26174191)
An electric heat pump would not be cheaper than natural gas at heating. If you follow the rabbit hole of links from what you linked to, it comes to https://www.ideasmiths.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/IdeaSm... and the claim there is that summer cooling would be cheaper with newer more efficient heat pumps, and result in the annual heating/cooling expense being lower. But it’s not drawing a direct comparison of the cost of natural gas heat versus electric heat pump heat.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:54PM (#26174510)
https://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/publications/resea...

> Our analysis finds that electric heat pumps generally use less energy in warm states and have moderately positive economics in these states if a heat pump can replace both the furnace and a central air conditioner.

> Based on our analysis, we find that electric heat pumps have higher equipment and installation costs than gas furnaces and that electricity is generally more expensive per Btu than natural gas. As a result, in all of the comparisons the gas furnace has a lower life cycle cost for homes without central air-conditioning. However, if a central air conditioner can be replaced with a heat pump, the high-efficiency heat pump has lower life cycle costs in climates from Virginia southward as well as in the Northwest. This is shown by an analysis that credits the avoided cost of a central air conditioner and also includes cooling-energy savings from replacing a central air conditioner meeting federal minimum efficiency standards—a seasonal energy efficiency ratio (SEER) of 13 in the North and a SEER of 14 in the South—with a higher-efficiency heat pump

> As discussed above, our analysis is only for existing homes. The results may be more positive toward heat pumps for new homes, as most new homes have air-conditioning and the cost of supplying gas to the home can be avoided by installing heat pumps.

Note that this is a few years old (2016), and more efficient heat pumps improve the economics.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by maxerickson on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:53PM (#26174028)
People with heat pumps would all be running them as resistance heaters in the weather they are having right now.

In that mode less of the energy in the gas becomes heat in the home (good furnaces are really good).

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:57PM (#26174068)
Quality heat pumps will extract heat from the air even below 0F, and they are more efficient than resistive heat (disclaimer: I have a high quality heat pump). It's not a silver bullet, but combined with weatherizing homes properly, it would've reduced peak demand on ERCOT (although ERCOT should probably have pressure applied on it to force natural gas generation and infrastructure to winterize so that this infrastructure can continue to operate during extended cold snaps, because it's clear in the decade(s) ERCOT has known this is an issue [1], they haven't done a damn thing to address the problem).

[1] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/article/Tex... ("A federal report that summer recommended steps including installing heating elements around pipes and increasing the amount of reserve power available before storms, noting many of those same warnings were issued after similar blackouts 22 years earlier and had gone unheeded.")

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by maxerickson on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:10PM (#26174182)
It's pretty predictable that people in (relatively warm) Texas would buy cheaper models that cut out at higher temperatures.

Weatherization makes any heating and cooling more efficient too, so everyone should assess for improvements.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:17PM (#26174238)
I'm just advocating for (or, attempting to) improved policy and planning around energy consumption and infrastructure. Penny wise pound foolish is getting old.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by throw0101a on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:37PM (#26174387)
Mitsubishi units can still extract energy down to -13F / -25C:

* https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/benefits/hyper-heating

These are designed in Japan, where they often have earthquakes, and so any flammable materials (natural gas) seem not to be used for heating. Things can get quite chilly up north:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikubetsu,_Hokkaido

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkaidō#Climate

AFAICT, the units do not have external thermometers, but rather look at the refrigerant temperature. So if the piping from the unit into your wall is short, then the refrigerant isn't exposed to the cold that much, and so may not effected as much by air temperature.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by fomine3 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:04PM (#26174591)
Kerosene heater is common heating method than heat pump in Japan cold area. But nowadays heat pump increasing share because it gets efficient and kerosene heating is bad for air. Especially it's prohibited to use on better insulated house, and heat pump's power is enough for such house.

I believe why natural gas heating is not popular is because they are a bit expensive and gas pipes aren't common outside big city. I'm getting curious why gas heating isn't popular even in big city (Sapporo). Your assumption (earthquake) looks reasonable for a part of reason.

Maybe gas heater is hard to install/uninstall and never use except winter. So we don't want to put all year on small house is reasonable.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by maxerickson on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @09:30PM (#26174747)
Natural gas is imported into Japan on ships. It's relatively recent that it has been the inexpensive option in that scenario.

And then gas does usually need ducting or radiators.

Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by jounker on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:51PM (#26174014)
Not terribly prescient. The current cold snap has even shut down coal and nuclear plants in Texas.
Re:Analysis: Texas power outage leaves officials working pol... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @08:08PM (#26174158)
I'm discouraged no one is asking about the elephant in the room - which is why the polar vortex has shifted to the extent that these events are happening at all.

It's not just Texas. There has been extreme cold across Europe, and unseasonable warmth across parts of the Arctic.

Of course it's far too late to fix the primary cause now. But it's still true that extreme weather events caused by climatic instability were being discussed more than twenty years ago.

Adding more of Power Source [X] is a bandaid. The real problem is structural, and it could have been solved more cheaply back then.