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Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by bogomipz on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:38PM (#26160306)
>"Does anyone really think the person buying crypto $100 at a time in their Robinhood account wants to pay $18 (current average transaction fee) every time they want to move that BTC into their wallet?"

I'm curious is this the transaction per $100 or is $18 a flat fee regardless of transfer amount?

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by rspeele on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:58PM (#26160572)
Transfer amount does not matter.

In general a Bitcoin transfaction fee is a market price to get your transaction included in a block. There is one block mined every 10 minutes and each block has enough capacity for a few thousand transactions. You put your transaction out on the network with a fee specified, and miners trying to create blocks can choose whether to include it in the block they attempt to mine. Naturally, miners trying to maximize profit will choose to include the transactions with the highest fees, occupying the least space in the block.

The size of the transaction (in bytes) is not related to the amount being transferred. It is tied to the number of inputs and outputs. Bitcoin doesn't directly track the "balance" of each address. Instead of a transaction saying "deduct 1000 satoshis from my account and give it to Charlie", it says, "take the 800 satoshis received from Alice in this old transaction, and the 500 satoshis received from Bob in that old transaction, and with that 1300 total give 1000 to Charlie and 300 back to me". 2 inputs and 2 outputs in that example, but you can imagine how both the # of inputs and the # of outputs can vary in practical usage. Therefore, a transaction that moves Bitcoins accumulated from many small transactions will be somewhat larger and have a more expensive fee than one that moves Bitcoins that were acquired all at once.

However, don't take this to mean that has an impact on the cost of withdrawing from an exchange: since the exchange doesn't make on-chain transactions for each buy/sell, it doesn't matter whether you bought your Bitcoins a little at a time or all at once for calculating your withdrawal fee. It'll pretty much be a flat fee.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:48PM (#26160451)
The average transaction fee is a bit disingenuous. Many people are not even using segwit and thats on them. You can also use lightning at this point in time but people dont know how to do it and wallets have not implemented yet. High fees usually prod people and services to adapt to the current tech to get costs down. I expect this to happen soon as high fees are somewhat recent. Also you can send a 50 cent tx fee and it will make it through but not be the fastest.

One other thing - you cant even move BTC in or out of Robinhood. Robinhood for crypto is a complete scam right now.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by UncleMeat on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:14PM (#26160754)
> You can also use lightning at this point in time

It has a big warning saying to not use it with cash you aren't willing to lose.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ineedasername on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:50PM (#26162424)
Neither Visa nor MasterCard have ever told me something like that.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by chrismorgan on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:30PM (#26161929)
> Also you can send a 50 cent tx fee and it will make it through but not be the fastest.

This has tended to be true (that it’d go through within a few days), but right now it’s probably largely false.

Assume a small 226 byte transaction (one input and two outputs); at $50,000 per bitcoin, 50¢ is 1000 satoshi, which is about 4.4 satoshi per byte.

Per https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#0,30d, transactions with fees under 5 satoshi per byte were last cleared on February 8 (~8 days ago), and before that last on January 28 (~11 days). (Before that, such transactions stalled for about 12 days in October/November; other than that, it looks like such transactions never stalled for even a week back to the January 2018 craze, to say nothing of 50¢ being more satoshi per byte back then anyway.)

And if your transaction expires after a week——

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by SamPatt on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:57PM (#26160567)
Transaction fees are high regardless of using Segwit or not and the Lightning Network is not widely adopted or user friendly at all.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by kaetemi on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#26161126)
At present time, $5 for a fast transaction with segwit.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:03PM (#26160631)
This response is just insignificant and ignores everything I said. Segwit adoption is at 50% and again, as I said in my comment, Lightning will be further adopted over time for people who want lower fees. The options are here its up to people and services to use them. And they will as their customers get angry.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by stale2002 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:18PM (#26161368)
It's been over 2 years since segwit was released.

It turns out that people were right when they said that it would take a long while for it to be adopted.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:23PM (#26161414)
I use it and I pay lower fees. You pay the price you deserve.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by imtringued on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:45AM (#26164576)
People with whole Bitcoin don't necessarily care about a $50 transaction fee. They still drive the transaction fees up by wasting space and thus cause people who decide to use segwit to pay more.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ineedasername on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:52PM (#26162442)
I though you paid the price dictated by the market/bidding system... How does bitcoin figure out what is deserved?
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by nfin on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @12:06AM (#26162933)
You (or your wallet, or both... depending of your wallet and your settings) choose the fees you like (the wallet could guesstimate based on the current congestion and your time preference).

The miners then choose the transactions they want to include in a way, as to maximize their gains. As a block can only hold a certain amount of transactions and the limit being set by the weight-units [1], miners will want to prioritize the transactions that offer them bigger fees per weight unit, or usually expressed as sats/vbyte (satoshis per virtual bytes).

So if you don't need a transaction to arrive in the next 1-2 hours, you can lower your fees, and the transaction might pass in the night (although BTC is international, congestion is less on US night time and especially week-ends) or if not, probably in the week-end. If it doesn't clear fast enough, or as fast as hoped, then RBF (replace-by-fee) or CPFP (child-pays-for-parent) might help (manually or an increase of the fee could be automated by the wallet every set amount of time).

TL;DR: there is a free market for transactions, but the price is not dictated by the market (and there is no real bidding system), instead you suggest a fee, and see if any miner around the world wants to include it in a block (and you can adjust if the outcome isn't achieved, which has similar results to a bidding system... but is more like natural supply/demand mechanism, as miner do not guarantee to include a transaction).

Helpful to see current unconfirmed transactions (and sats/vbyte): https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#0,30d [info: the legend is clickable, and makes it easier to view how many higher paying transactions there are]

[1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weight_units

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by incrudible on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:59PM (#26160587)
> One other thing - you cant even move BTC in or out of Robinhood. Robinhood for crypto is a complete scam right now.

If you buy an option for a barrel of oil, Robinhood doesn't even deliver it to you. Same for wheat and gold. What a scam!

In all seriousness, if you want to speculate on the price of Bitcoin, Robinhood may be better than using some of these more sketchy exchanges that offer decent amounts of leverage.

If you want to actually purchase Bitcoin, there's regulated exchanges where you can do so, though that'll probably land you on some FBI watch list.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:05PM (#26160656)
"though that'll probably land you on some FBI watch list." I have no idea why you would think this.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by Imnimo on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:45PM (#26161076)
In a way, putting your transactions on a public ledger is like voluntarily adding yourself to a watch list. The government (and everyone else) can then come and inspect your financial history at their leisure in the future.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:57PM (#26161191)
Its a settlement layer. Who cares. And you think they already cant access your transactions through the traditional system? Thats how they catch criminals every year.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by Imnimo on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:18PM (#26161365)
Accessing transactions in the traditional system ostensibly requires a subpoena, and is limited by jurisdiction.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:55PM (#26161653)
You would need the same to identify a fiat gateway with btc. You cant link a person to an account without that.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by Imnimo on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:01PM (#26161698)
I'm skeptical that you couldn't. Anonymous data is often not quite as anonymous as we think, and identities can be deanonymized by cross-referencing with other public info. If even one of your on-chain transactions leaks identity, your entire history with that wallet is compromised.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ralusek on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:44PM (#26162388)
It's just a public/private key generated. How would they ever find out who you are?
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by selestify on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @12:41AM (#26163119)
Many/most people go through online exchanges to buy their bitcoin instead of meeting with people locally. These online exchanges perform KYC and will readily provide the government with which addresses you sent your bitcoin to.

Even if the government didn't have that, they might still be able to deanonymize you via your transactions. Pseudonymity is not anonymity. If a single merchant identifies you as the buyer in a transaction, the government might be able to figure out the rest of your transactions in that chain.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by tuesdayrain on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:35PM (#26161521)
It's amusing to see people on "Hacker" News afraid of the spooky tech that is Bitcoin :)
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ineedasername on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:57PM (#26162471)
You are confusing skepticism with fear.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by tuesdayrain on Sunday February 21, 2021 @03:41PM (#26216960)
Thinking that merely using BTC is "like voluntarily adding yourself to a watch list" sounds more like fear than reasonable skepticism to me.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by fomine3 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:51PM (#26161620)
Why Lightning isn't adopted well? Is it unreliable or can be frauded due to it's not blockchain? What's the point to use non-blockchain tech?
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by trident5000 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:54PM (#26161646)
Tech rollout takes time. Because paying for your coffee is insignificant and you dont need nuclear level security to protect it. But nevertheless it should be very secure.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by tuesdayrain on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @08:34PM (#26161510)
>One other thing - you cant even move BTC in or out of Robinhood. Robinhood for crypto is a complete scam right now.

I definitely would not call that a scam. I have no reason to move my BTC.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ineedasername on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:54PM (#26162457)
It's only a scam if you're trying to own actual bitcoin instead of simply using it as an investment vehicle.

Besides, if you really want to own a given amount of bitcoins that you have in your robinhood account, you just liquidate your position in RH and use those funds to purchase bitcoins directly.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:10PM (#26161754)
"my"
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by nacs on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @06:42PM (#26160368)
It's per transaction regardless of amount. So a $20 transaction also has a $18 transaction fee.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by incrudible on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:04PM (#26160642)
It's a flat fee. The $18 may be the average currently, but it's on the high end. You'll probably be fine with $5. It all depends on how much you want the transaction to be in the next block. If you're sending $50,000 in BTC then you don't care about $18.

If you're transferring smaller amounts, why are you using Bitcoin? Use Bitcoin Cash or Litecoin or one of these newfangled proof-of-stake currencies. Then it'll be a couple of cents flat.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by UncleMeat on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:13PM (#26160746)
In my entire life, the largest transfer of cash I have ever done between institutions was I think $30,000 and it was between a bank account I owned and my brokerage. I'd wager that the majority of people have never transmitted more than $5,000 in their life.

Power to the people?

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by incrudible on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @07:27PM (#26160928)
The majority of people will also never own a Berkshire A share. It doesn't really matter.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by UncleMeat on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:52PM (#26162095)
BTC's price story is based on the idea that a huge portion of people will use it. Berksire A is expensive for an entirely different reason.

The story seems to rapidly shift between "BTC will save Venezuelans from an oppressive government" and "we never said it mattered if people could use BTC for transfers of non-huge amounts of money".

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by incrudible on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @11:01PM (#26162506)
There's many stories on why Bitcoin should have value. Most of them don't make sense. Nevertheless, Bitcoin clearly is valuable, despite being used by few.

Of course people have trouble pricing Bitcoin, but the same is true for many other assets. If literally the only use for Bitcoin would be to speculate on all the cryptocurrencies, that would be enough to make it valuable.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ineedasername on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @11:00PM (#26162500)
Yes, the role of bitcoin has been gradually changing from "revolutionary" to mundane financial asset class with a novel method of purchasing it.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by imtringued on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:51AM (#26164630)
It's actually moving away from that. It will be just be a settlement layer in 10 years.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by ramraj07 on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:31PM (#26161933)
Isn't the downpayment on the median us house much larger than 30k?
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by UncleMeat on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @09:54PM (#26162102)
Have most individuals in the US bought a house? Have most individuals in the world bought a house in the US?
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by phamilton on Tuesday February 16, 2021 @10:12PM (#26162195)
For reference, a wire transfer at a major bank like Wells Fargo is $34.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by bluecalm on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @12:30AM (#26163064)
This is stunning to me. Wire transfers are free and fast in my country. I mean maybe some banks charge some people like 10c per transfer but they are mostly free. They are also very common way to transfer money to friends, paying someone, moving money around accounts etc.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by phamilton on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @12:48AM (#26163154)
A wire transfer is not the same as an ACH transfer. I can send you money for free via ACH, but it takes a few days to clear.

A wire transfer is a realtime transfer between banks. The only time I've used it was while buying a house. I've never done a wire transfer under $20k.

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by wwtrv on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @07:57AM (#26165798)
Well in the EU we have SEPA transfwr which are ussually free and close to instant between an increaskng number of banks.
Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by nly on Thursday February 18, 2021 @05:13PM (#26186446)
The standard in the UK is "Faster Payments" for domestic transfers and are near instant up to £10K ($14K). For higher amounts you can use BACs (the automatic fallback for FP) which is typically next day.

All free

Re:Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto by shawabawa3 on Wednesday February 17, 2021 @04:29AM (#26164466)
The fee depends on demand, and is per transaction. So the same for $1 and for $1m