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Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by MaxBarraclough on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:27AM (#26064868)
> Forensic labs and companies are expert witnesses with black box processes and the incentive to protect the authority of their profession.

I imagine they're also incentivised to favour a result indicating guilt.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by heavyset_go on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:43PM (#26067633)
They fill a similar role to prosecutors that field drug tests serve to cops[1]: they aren't meant to be accurate, they exist to give the cops legitimacy as they proceed to do whatever it is they wanted to do to you. In the cops' case, they need legitimacy to search and arrest you, and in the prosecutors' case, they need legitimacy to charge and convict you.

If field drug tests were actually accurate, they wouldn't be bought and used. Similarly, if an expert witness fails to give prosecutors the results and testimony that they want, they wouldn't be hired again.

[1] "How a $2 Roadside Drug Test Sends Innocent People to Jail": https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/magazine/how-a-2-roadside...

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by jdsalaro on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:34PM (#26068269)
> They fill a similar role to prosecutors that field drug tests serve to cops[1]: they aren't meant to be accurate, they exist to give the the cops legitimacy as they proceed to do whatever it is they wanted to do to you. In the cops' case, they need legitimacy to search and arrest you, and in the prosecutors' case, they need legitimacy to charge and convict you.

In case any of you are interested, or completely flabbergasted as I was, by the idea that law enforcement's purpose and raison d'etre could ever become as distorted and contorted as this comment mentions, you should definitely read more on Walter "Johnny D." Macmillan [1] or watch the movie based on his story: Just Mercy[2].

Absolutely mind-blowing stuff.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Mercy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_McMillian

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by bluntfang on Monday February 08, 2021 @03:32PM (#26069691)
Wow, think about what it takes to be an elected official (Sheriff) and not only perjure, lie, and coerce witnesses, but be outed for all of those crimes, and then continue to run for election and continue your tenure for decades. How does someone live with themselves knowing they purposely put an innocent man on death row, and then CONTINUE YOUR CAREER, probably thinking yourself as successful?

The guilt I feel when I introduce a software bug that effects my corporate customers can sometimes burn my motivation for WEEKS. Who are these people?!

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by anonAndOn on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:38AM (#26066758)
> incentivised to favour a result indicating guilt

Exhibit A: Annie Dookhan of the Massachusetts State Crime Lab who is suspected of falsifying thousands of drug tests

[0]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/massachusetts-lab-tech-arrested...

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by HarryHirsch on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:36PM (#26068288)
Annie Dookhan did about 3 years of jail, which is risible, considering that her cooking of evidence affected > 30000 cases. No visible consequences for the supervisor, which is scandalous, considering that the had been carrying on for at least 4 years.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by neodymiumphish on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:09PM (#26067959)
This absolutely depends on the agency/situation.

My agency used to rate our agents based on the amount of cases that led to convictions. Years back, we recognized that disproving an allegation was equally worthwhile, and settings promotions/evaluations based on "proving or disproving" the allegation was much more objectively reasonable than focusing strictly on convictions. There is still a reference to case completion speed, value of recovered money/property, and conviction results (providing a thorough enough investigation that the suspect is convicted for X years, for example), but disproving an allegation or proving that a different person committed the crime is far more appreciable to the agency.

We're fortunate in that we are a federal agency, instead of local/state level, where they can be significantly more busy with countless lesser offenses, while still running some extremely high-profile stuff, but I think it would be a huge boon to law enforcement if states mandated an approach focused on this objective metric that isn't strictly on "getting him".

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tantalor on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:40AM (#26065043)
Why? The risk to their reputation & livelihood for a false positive should temper that.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by MaxBarraclough on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:11AM (#26065514)
The hands-off reputation-based approach isn't enough to regulate food and drugs, or aviation. I don't see why for-profit forensics companies should be trusted implicitly.

Also related: we know that funding bias [0] is a real problem in science, despite that scientists' reputations should (ideally) motivate them to resist such biases.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding_bias

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by kortilla on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:22AM (#26065689)
No, the question is what is the incentive for lying and claiming guilty? Do prosecutors choose different labs?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:16AM (#26066438)
Of course prosecutors will favour expert witnesses that will help them get convictions. Why isn’t that obvious?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by drdrey on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#26066619)
There are countries where the job of the prosecutor is to uncover the truth, not to convict someone at all costs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by jerf on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#26067544)
I doubt there's any system in the world where it's officially the job of a prosecutor to "convict someone at all costs". It certainly isn't in the US. Nevertheless....
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by 2112 on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:09PM (#26067956)
Most of the very real dynamics that affect all of our lives at a policy-making / systemic level are never official. If you think the official stuff is a reflection of reality ... I don't know how to finish this sentence. Safe from it being "official", it is very much the job of a prosecutor in the US to convict someone at all costs. This is common knowledge.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Aerroon on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:01PM (#26068581)
The Soviet Union is a perfect example of this. They had set up a proper republic. It had a constitution, elections, there were government posts etc. The problem was that the Party came first. The official that held the government post might've had the legal power, but in reality they were rubber stamps for the Party.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:09PM (#26067200)
I know. I live in such country. But even here it is better for the prosecutor’s career with many convictions.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by heavyset_go on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:48PM (#26067707)
Conviction rates are surprisingly high in a lot of the first world.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:33PM (#26069024)
I’m not sure what conclusion we should draw from that isolated fact. It can mean that people are convicted on too weak evidence, and it can mean that people are only put on trial when the evidence already is very strong.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by simple_phrases on Monday February 08, 2021 @03:02PM (#26069371)
I think we can look at the plea bargain rates and assume that most people do not have the resources to stand trial, and thus plea out whether or not the charges against them are valid.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by bardworx on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:31AM (#26066647)
Ok, maybe I’m naive, but why is that obvious?

Not arguing just trying to understand.

My rationale is: prosecutors have to weigh an “easy” conviction vs the possibility that labs that always guarantee results may be biased. In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promoted role?

Or am I just naive on how the legal system works?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by benlivengood on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:58AM (#26067048)
> In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promoted role?

I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner) prosecutors are not experts in particular technical fields which is why courts allow expert witnesses. The defense is responsible for calling their own experts who can dispute other biased witnesses. If no one successfully disputes an expert witness over time the prosecutor's trust in them is very likely to grow.

A prosecutor will always claim they did due diligence by selecting a reputable expert witness up until it's proven that the witness was not in fact reliable, but claim (likely in good faith) that they had no way of knowing the expert witness was biased.

A better solution might be to mandate that expert witnesses get independently tested but again that's something a defense council could facilitate and bring into evidence. If no defense team finds it valuable to do this kind of work then it's unlikely a prosecutor will see it as useful either. Lack of challenges implies that the evidence is more or less indisputable from a legal perspective.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by mulmen on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:49PM (#26068427)
I wonder how much of this has to do with funding differences. Public defenders are famously underfunded but prosecutors have essentially unlimited resources. As a result they are on a fast-track to political fortune, especially if they "do their job well" and "win" (get a lot of convictions).

How can the truth-finding benefits of the adversarial system be preserved while leveling the playing field by equalizing resources?

My naive thought is that both parties pay into a common fund that is split equally between the prosecution and defense. But that seems like it has it's own set of pitfalls. Are there other models we can look to for ideas?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by curryst on Monday February 08, 2021 @07:04PM (#26072108)
So there's an underlying problem here, which is that at our current rate of indictments, our court systems cannot support everyone going to trial. One of the reasons people in charge of funding want to starve the public defenders is that if they're actually good, people will be less willing to just plea out to a lower charge. So the growth will be non-linear as their success rate increases due to the funding, which they now need more of to service the extra cases they get from being good.

One idea is that whoever introduces an expert witness must also pay for the other side's expert witness, up to the cost of your expert. The defense doesn't need to prove anything due to the presumption of innocence, so the defense gets free counter-experts and only have to pay for the counter-expert if they want to bring up an expert about something the prosecution doesn't want to talk about.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by mulmen on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:09PM (#26073045)
Huh, that’s an interesting idea but it seems to only address one form of inequality. Clearly the incentives are perverse. If there are more cases brought than the system can handle then this just sounds like a band aid at best.

The real issue is why are there so many cases?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by nobody9999 on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:14PM (#26068773)
>I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner)

That process happens very rarely. Federal criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~97% of cases and state criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~94% of cases[0].

This is a travesty of justice, especially since most defendants are severely over-charged and often face long prison sentences if they actually insist on (and can afford) a trial.

Those practices, along with cash bail, force even innocent people to plead guilty to avoid having their lives destroyed by bankruptcy, loss of employment, homes and even custody of their children.

And once they have a criminal conviction, they are stigmatized for life and are shut out of many jobs.

In most of these cases, the forensic evidence (if any) is never presented. For a discussion of this, as well as American forensic practices, see Blood, Powder and Residue[1], by Beth Bechky (Author discussion can be found here[2]).

While there are no required standards for forensics labs in the US (with some exceptions[4]), there are accreditation programs (example[3]), and not all forensic laboratories are for-profit companies.

I'm not defending the quality or independence of any particular forensic lab, but it's definitely more diverse than just a bunch of corrupt, rapacious scum sucking at the teat of prosecutors' budgets.

That said, most criminal defendants are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to performing/challening forensic research, as many state and federal labs provide such services for prosecutors, while defendants need to pay, often through the nose for them.

It's just another way the US "justice" system is stacked against criminal defendants.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-bec...

[1] https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691183589/bl...

[2] https://www.c-span.org/video/?508130-1/blood-powder-residue

[3] https://anab.ansi.org/en/forensic-accreditation

[4] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...

Edit: Added notation for reference [1]

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by horsawlarway on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:05PM (#26067152)
I'll take a different approach than the other folks responding to you -

There are plenty of profit motives involved that have little to do with securing future contracts with police departments.

At the most basic - Source code reviews are expensive. They can often throw thousands of false flags that developers have to individually track down and verify are not problems.

Then there's the reputation hit of admitting a mistake - If you've had a bug for the last 5 years that makes you less reliable, that alone is likely to impact future contracts. So given the option of revealing this, admitting the mistake, and tackling the cases it impacted... OR... simply sweeping it under the rug and fixing it internally - some companies will take option number 2 (possibly most companies).

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by the_local_host on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:52AM (#26066973)
I think you're underestimating the usefulness of scapegoats. If biased results exist, a lot of people look more effective. If such a bias is discovered, only a subset of those people will be blamed.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by eptcyka on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:15PM (#26067289)
Prosecutors don't seek justice, they seek a conviction.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:37PM (#26069076)
Sometimes the expert witness is in the department's own lab. It seems a tautology that they will favor conviction. Every officer bringing in evidence is begging "Give me something I can use to get this scumbag!" The pressure to fudge is enormous.

A fairly simple step is to certify equipment independently, and to do blind testing (one sample is provided from evidence; another by an independent unrelated source). Of course this costs more, but anything else is effectively an experiment without a control.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by pelliphant on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:30AM (#26065813)
That seems plausible.

I would argue that if prosecutors and/or cops get to pick the tool, false positives would result in more sales.

Just as false negatives would result in more sales if the defendant gets to make the pick.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by thgaway17 on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:53AM (#26066119)
false positives would result in more sales.

That seems highly unlikely. Prosecutors, like all attorneys, talk. It wouldn’t take too many getting burned by a false positive before word would get out (regardless of any nda).

For example, once an expert gets Dauberted, you’ve got to think long and hard about being the next guy to use them.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by pelliphant on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:07AM (#26066319)
But how would one actually know if a result is a false positive or not?

Sure, in extreme cases it might be obvious, but if you just know that one test gives more matches than another, not knowing which one is the one giving false results?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by merpnderp on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:14AM (#26066420)
But genetic evidence is often enough to convict by itself. A false positive is far more likely to land a conviction than an embarrassment to the prosecutor. I mean we live in a world where DNA evidence will easily override solid alibis.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by 6510 on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:47PM (#26067699)
A product that doesn't work wouldn't be considered.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by ncallaway on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:26PM (#26068158)
You're a prosecutor. Your goal is to get convictions. You are objectively graded largely on your ability to secure convictions.

Every incentive you have leads you to preferring convictions.

You have a choice between two labs to hire for your field test. Lab A and Lab B.

Lab A gives you conclusive evidence leading to a conviction 95% of the time. Lab B gives you conclusive evidence leading to a conviction 65% of the time. Price and speed are roughly comparable between the labs. Which lab do you select?

---

You are now a lab director. You are under pressure to improve the sales of the lab's forensic services. You have pretty much maxed out making changes to improve price and speed, and have been matched by other labs. You understand very well the decision making process prosecutors will use to hire your lab.

---

The incentives clearly lead prosecutors to pursuing labs that deliver better results. Labs know this, and so are under market pressure to delivery convictions for prosecutors.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by ashtonkem on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:08PM (#26067195)
Yes, yes they do. Prosecutors often campaign on being “tough on crime”, and even judges (where elected) are known to sentence more harshly during election season.

The ability for an expert witness to deliver more convictions, even if by lying, is a feature for prosecutors, not a bug.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by geocar on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:26AM (#26065751)
If you knew someone was guilty, because of a preponderance of other evidence you have the utmost faith in, such as a professional law enforcement officers’ eyewitness account, and the DNA testing vendor you were evaluating said “not guilty”, what exactly would you expect to happen?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:11AM (#26066373)
That the eyewitness account would be discarded, they make for terrible evidence anyway.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tekromancr on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:45AM (#26066885)
I think it is REALLY hard to overstate how dangerously naive a view of the american justice system that is
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:40PM (#26068325)
I don't understand what you mean. I would expect them to make the obviously correct decision, though I'm fully aware that they very often don't.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tsimionescu on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:43PM (#26069137)
It depends on the definition of 'expect'. You should expect it of them, as in consider it unethical if they don't. You shouldn't expect them to live up to this standard, as in, if you were to bet on it, you'd likely lose.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by buttercraft on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:35AM (#26065884)
Paying investigators per conviction is a sure way to create incentive.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Eric_WVGG on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#26066632)
Exactly. "Product X caught 25% more bad guys than Product Y" this stuff just writes itself.

Policing is driven by numbers. There was a whole season of The Wire about this.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by irjustin on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:31AM (#26065824)
A lot of DA and other prosecutors are measured by the number of convictions they get vs the number of cases they take to court.

Their goals are always to get plea bargain because that is automatic guilt or if they take it to court, they'd better win. That's a lot of state resources just to lose.

Overtime, you'll get people willing to bend the rules, turn a blind eye to 'weak evidence' or whatever.

You're only as good as your measurement/incentivisation.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by treeman79 on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:34PM (#26067527)
Deal: Parole for a year. If not, full resources of the government to convict you, jail time in the decades. Evan a failure to convict can ruin you for life.

Even innocent people with a good alibi are going to take the deal.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by chopin on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:44AM (#26065101)
Why should that come to light if the process is opaque? Most defendants don't have the resources to challenge that.

And if it comes to light, acknowledge a one-time error and carry on.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by wtetzner on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:44AM (#26065109)
I seems like there are no repercussions for sending an innocent person to prison. I don't know if that's true, but it definitely seems like it.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by jimz on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:36AM (#26065890)
Depends on what you mean by repercussions. Since there is at least informal and sometimes fairly open scorekeeping happening at prosecutor's offices there's some hurt pride if your conviction is overturned later. Everything else either gets taken care of by the taxpayer or prosecutors' immunity for their official acts so on a personal level, no, there won't be any actual repercussions.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by dathinab on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:06AM (#26065424)
Because they likely use metrics which highlight how many criminals where caught due to their system.

On the other side a metric which says how many times no conclusive evidence was found with DNA testing sounds more like a metric of failure (but is not, if you don't have qualitative good enough evidence including "complete enough" DNA you should not make up results which simply don't exists, but then courts ruling without conclusive evidence isn't that rare and some would say even necessary to some degree. It's just that many believe DNA tests are somehow unfailable perfects ways to prove the presence of an specific person at a specific place, but they are often not).

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by andi999 on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:47AM (#26065150)
The prosecution might call in a different expert in the next trial if the current one is not 'good'.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by refurb on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:02AM (#26065369)
Then they get hired by the defense.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by MaxBarraclough on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:12AM (#26065536)
The defence can rarely afford their services.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by jimz on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:03AM (#26066282)
Prosecutors aren't necessarily blessed with bigger budgets in a lot of places, they simply have a separately-funded (and very well funded at that) investigative body that is the police or sheriff's office doing the really expensive part that the defense, especially a public defender's office, will only have a skeleton crew to do. The problem is that defense may not have the resources or knowledge to use inadequacies of something like this as a defense in the first place, and may not be able to effectively cross or direct an expert because of the lack of specific expertise and the reactive nature of the job.

It's not that the venn diagram of tech-literate and criminal-defense lawyers are entirely separate circles, but having been "that guy" in a public defender's office for even basic stuff like cell tower triangulation accuracy to finding proprietary surveillance video codecs to decode exculpatory evidence, you really need to start at square one while the prosecution have the whole police department's resources, expertise, and initiative at their disposal. You can afford the expert, it just won't do any good when you don't know what questions to ask that will actually be effective. And unsurprisingly those who do have experience in technical, specialized fields tend to get poached into the private sector or out of trial (really plea) practice all together, so the knowledge/bullshit gap will still exist and there's no real consistent way to bridge it.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by refurb on Monday February 08, 2021 @07:03PM (#26072104)
The one trial I sat in on, it was the public defender who hired the expert.

Go figure.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by andi999 on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:04AM (#26066283)
Also the defense is many customers while the prosecution is bulk.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by _jal on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:37AM (#26066751)
Livelihood is frequently the reason why biases creep in. Independent labs tend to do better.

Here's a look at two different Texas crime labs. Compare and contrast, and see if you can spot the differences.

https://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2021/02/beyond-aid-to...

It starts with one pledging to:

   aid law enforcement in the detection, suppression, and prosecution of crime
whereas the other seeks to

    provide medical examiner and crime laboratory services of the highest quality in an unbiased manner with uncompromised integrity.

and goes from there.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by vkou on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:42AM (#26065970)
When a DNA lab issues a false positive, its CEO doesn't go to prison, nor do they get hit with a charge-back for all the tests they've done in the past year.

Their reputation doesn't matter as much as you think. Police procurement isn't based on the reputation of the vendor. It's based on whether or not the vendor delivers the results they want.

In fact, government procurement in general, isn't based on the reputation of the vendor. This is by design.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by macinjosh on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:34AM (#26065860)
Prosecutors want a 100% conviction rate. They are the ones who hire these companies. Generally speaking companies give customers what they are looking for.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by linuxftw on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:20AM (#26065652)
Perhaps in a just society. Most places, the state and it's agents can do no wrong, there's almost no incentive to do the right thing.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by dimitrios1 on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:50AM (#26066084)
This is a long tail regulatory force, but unfortunately, does nothing to stop bad actors from jumping in and making a quick profit for as long as they can until it goes noticed.

Society also no longer has tolerance for processes that are not fully auditable and transparent, especially when it comes to our already marred justice system.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by acranox on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:39AM (#26066771)
Maybe for some, but look what happened in Massachusetts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Dookhan
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by avs733 on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:05PM (#26067900)
The risk to their business of negatives whether or not they are false negatives, is likely higher. The resource asymmetry between a tax payer funded prosecution and a defendant funded defense is enormous.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:43AM (#26065086)
While there have been cases of technicians guilty of systemic fudging of data, that is a tiny exception to the vast majority of honest technicians with self-respect.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by kingkawn on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:48AM (#26066062)
Your sentimentality is not enough for a good justice system.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:35PM (#26067540)
On the contrary, that's what the American justice system is entirely based upon. Fair judges, juries of peers and so on. Its the bedrock of justice.

Engineers have some notion that it can all be replaced with science. In so far as science can certify the reliability of tests, that is good. But in the end one has to trust the humans between those tests and the courtroom.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tsimionescu on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:53PM (#26069265)
The whole point of this discussion is that this trust is being largely misplaced.

A lot of forensic science in itself is essentially phrenology (tooth prints, hair analysis - the non DNA kind, even fingerprinting is of exaggerated value). A lot of labs systematically turn out biased results with generally no expectation of risk, either personally to researchers and definitely not to higher ups.

Ultimately, forensic evidence should be seen as a signal, but not nearly as trustworthy as witness testimony (which in itself is not very trustworthy), despite what many believe.

And this is important for the general public to understand, the people who will participate in juries. The mystique that forensic experts have can make juries give extremely wrong decisions (even bad aquitalls on lack of forensic evidence).

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 08, 2021 @03:40PM (#26069804)
Yes there is a need for controls and independent certification.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tsimionescu on Monday February 08, 2021 @03:47PM (#26069890)
There is also a need to recognize that a lot of this science just doesn't work (to the extent that it is often presented). The right way to phrase a lot of the conclusions of these experts, at the state of the art, would be 'in my expert opinion, it looks like it might be their DNA/fingerprint/hair/teeth', not 'in my expert opinion it is [...]'. Because even the state of the art is often about at that level - probably closer to 75% accuracy than 99.99% like it's often treated. Especially on real world, partial, corrupted samples.

And to emphasize again, I'm talking about the state of the art without the biases being discussed. The biases only compound this problem significantly.