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Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by kortilla on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:22AM (#26065689)
No, the question is what is the incentive for lying and claiming guilty? Do prosecutors choose different labs?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:16AM (#26066438)
Of course prosecutors will favour expert witnesses that will help them get convictions. Why isn’t that obvious?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by drdrey on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#26066619)
There are countries where the job of the prosecutor is to uncover the truth, not to convict someone at all costs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by jerf on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#26067544)
I doubt there's any system in the world where it's officially the job of a prosecutor to "convict someone at all costs". It certainly isn't in the US. Nevertheless....
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by 2112 on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:09PM (#26067956)
Most of the very real dynamics that affect all of our lives at a policy-making / systemic level are never official. If you think the official stuff is a reflection of reality ... I don't know how to finish this sentence. Safe from it being "official", it is very much the job of a prosecutor in the US to convict someone at all costs. This is common knowledge.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Aerroon on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:01PM (#26068581)
The Soviet Union is a perfect example of this. They had set up a proper republic. It had a constitution, elections, there were government posts etc. The problem was that the Party came first. The official that held the government post might've had the legal power, but in reality they were rubber stamps for the Party.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:09PM (#26067200)
I know. I live in such country. But even here it is better for the prosecutor’s career with many convictions.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by heavyset_go on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:48PM (#26067707)
Conviction rates are surprisingly high in a lot of the first world.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Ma8ee on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:33PM (#26069024)
I’m not sure what conclusion we should draw from that isolated fact. It can mean that people are convicted on too weak evidence, and it can mean that people are only put on trial when the evidence already is very strong.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by simple_phrases on Monday February 08, 2021 @03:02PM (#26069371)
I think we can look at the plea bargain rates and assume that most people do not have the resources to stand trial, and thus plea out whether or not the charges against them are valid.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by bardworx on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:31AM (#26066647)
Ok, maybe I’m naive, but why is that obvious?

Not arguing just trying to understand.

My rationale is: prosecutors have to weigh an “easy” conviction vs the possibility that labs that always guarantee results may be biased. In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promoted role?

Or am I just naive on how the legal system works?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by benlivengood on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:58AM (#26067048)
> In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promoted role?

I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner) prosecutors are not experts in particular technical fields which is why courts allow expert witnesses. The defense is responsible for calling their own experts who can dispute other biased witnesses. If no one successfully disputes an expert witness over time the prosecutor's trust in them is very likely to grow.

A prosecutor will always claim they did due diligence by selecting a reputable expert witness up until it's proven that the witness was not in fact reliable, but claim (likely in good faith) that they had no way of knowing the expert witness was biased.

A better solution might be to mandate that expert witnesses get independently tested but again that's something a defense council could facilitate and bring into evidence. If no defense team finds it valuable to do this kind of work then it's unlikely a prosecutor will see it as useful either. Lack of challenges implies that the evidence is more or less indisputable from a legal perspective.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by mulmen on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:49PM (#26068427)
I wonder how much of this has to do with funding differences. Public defenders are famously underfunded but prosecutors have essentially unlimited resources. As a result they are on a fast-track to political fortune, especially if they "do their job well" and "win" (get a lot of convictions).

How can the truth-finding benefits of the adversarial system be preserved while leveling the playing field by equalizing resources?

My naive thought is that both parties pay into a common fund that is split equally between the prosecution and defense. But that seems like it has it's own set of pitfalls. Are there other models we can look to for ideas?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by curryst on Monday February 08, 2021 @07:04PM (#26072108)
So there's an underlying problem here, which is that at our current rate of indictments, our court systems cannot support everyone going to trial. One of the reasons people in charge of funding want to starve the public defenders is that if they're actually good, people will be less willing to just plea out to a lower charge. So the growth will be non-linear as their success rate increases due to the funding, which they now need more of to service the extra cases they get from being good.

One idea is that whoever introduces an expert witness must also pay for the other side's expert witness, up to the cost of your expert. The defense doesn't need to prove anything due to the presumption of innocence, so the defense gets free counter-experts and only have to pay for the counter-expert if they want to bring up an expert about something the prosecution doesn't want to talk about.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by mulmen on Monday February 08, 2021 @09:09PM (#26073045)
Huh, that’s an interesting idea but it seems to only address one form of inequality. Clearly the incentives are perverse. If there are more cases brought than the system can handle then this just sounds like a band aid at best.

The real issue is why are there so many cases?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by nobody9999 on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:14PM (#26068773)
>I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner)

That process happens very rarely. Federal criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~97% of cases and state criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~94% of cases[0].

This is a travesty of justice, especially since most defendants are severely over-charged and often face long prison sentences if they actually insist on (and can afford) a trial.

Those practices, along with cash bail, force even innocent people to plead guilty to avoid having their lives destroyed by bankruptcy, loss of employment, homes and even custody of their children.

And once they have a criminal conviction, they are stigmatized for life and are shut out of many jobs.

In most of these cases, the forensic evidence (if any) is never presented. For a discussion of this, as well as American forensic practices, see Blood, Powder and Residue[1], by Beth Bechky (Author discussion can be found here[2]).

While there are no required standards for forensics labs in the US (with some exceptions[4]), there are accreditation programs (example[3]), and not all forensic laboratories are for-profit companies.

I'm not defending the quality or independence of any particular forensic lab, but it's definitely more diverse than just a bunch of corrupt, rapacious scum sucking at the teat of prosecutors' budgets.

That said, most criminal defendants are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to performing/challening forensic research, as many state and federal labs provide such services for prosecutors, while defendants need to pay, often through the nose for them.

It's just another way the US "justice" system is stacked against criminal defendants.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-bec...

[1] https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691183589/bl...

[2] https://www.c-span.org/video/?508130-1/blood-powder-residue

[3] https://anab.ansi.org/en/forensic-accreditation

[4] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...

Edit: Added notation for reference [1]

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by horsawlarway on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:05PM (#26067152)
I'll take a different approach than the other folks responding to you -

There are plenty of profit motives involved that have little to do with securing future contracts with police departments.

At the most basic - Source code reviews are expensive. They can often throw thousands of false flags that developers have to individually track down and verify are not problems.

Then there's the reputation hit of admitting a mistake - If you've had a bug for the last 5 years that makes you less reliable, that alone is likely to impact future contracts. So given the option of revealing this, admitting the mistake, and tackling the cases it impacted... OR... simply sweeping it under the rug and fixing it internally - some companies will take option number 2 (possibly most companies).

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by the_local_host on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:52AM (#26066973)
I think you're underestimating the usefulness of scapegoats. If biased results exist, a lot of people look more effective. If such a bias is discovered, only a subset of those people will be blamed.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by eptcyka on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:15PM (#26067289)
Prosecutors don't seek justice, they seek a conviction.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by JoeAltmaier on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:37PM (#26069076)
Sometimes the expert witness is in the department's own lab. It seems a tautology that they will favor conviction. Every officer bringing in evidence is begging "Give me something I can use to get this scumbag!" The pressure to fudge is enormous.

A fairly simple step is to certify equipment independently, and to do blind testing (one sample is provided from evidence; another by an independent unrelated source). Of course this costs more, but anything else is effectively an experiment without a control.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by pelliphant on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:30AM (#26065813)
That seems plausible.

I would argue that if prosecutors and/or cops get to pick the tool, false positives would result in more sales.

Just as false negatives would result in more sales if the defendant gets to make the pick.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by thgaway17 on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:53AM (#26066119)
false positives would result in more sales.

That seems highly unlikely. Prosecutors, like all attorneys, talk. It wouldn’t take too many getting burned by a false positive before word would get out (regardless of any nda).

For example, once an expert gets Dauberted, you’ve got to think long and hard about being the next guy to use them.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by pelliphant on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:07AM (#26066319)
But how would one actually know if a result is a false positive or not?

Sure, in extreme cases it might be obvious, but if you just know that one test gives more matches than another, not knowing which one is the one giving false results?

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by merpnderp on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:14AM (#26066420)
But genetic evidence is often enough to convict by itself. A false positive is far more likely to land a conviction than an embarrassment to the prosecutor. I mean we live in a world where DNA evidence will easily override solid alibis.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by 6510 on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:47PM (#26067699)
A product that doesn't work wouldn't be considered.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by ncallaway on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:26PM (#26068158)
You're a prosecutor. Your goal is to get convictions. You are objectively graded largely on your ability to secure convictions.

Every incentive you have leads you to preferring convictions.

You have a choice between two labs to hire for your field test. Lab A and Lab B.

Lab A gives you conclusive evidence leading to a conviction 95% of the time. Lab B gives you conclusive evidence leading to a conviction 65% of the time. Price and speed are roughly comparable between the labs. Which lab do you select?

---

You are now a lab director. You are under pressure to improve the sales of the lab's forensic services. You have pretty much maxed out making changes to improve price and speed, and have been matched by other labs. You understand very well the decision making process prosecutors will use to hire your lab.

---

The incentives clearly lead prosecutors to pursuing labs that deliver better results. Labs know this, and so are under market pressure to delivery convictions for prosecutors.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by ashtonkem on Monday February 08, 2021 @12:08PM (#26067195)
Yes, yes they do. Prosecutors often campaign on being “tough on crime”, and even judges (where elected) are known to sentence more harshly during election season.

The ability for an expert witness to deliver more convictions, even if by lying, is a feature for prosecutors, not a bug.

Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by geocar on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:26AM (#26065751)
If you knew someone was guilty, because of a preponderance of other evidence you have the utmost faith in, such as a professional law enforcement officers’ eyewitness account, and the DNA testing vendor you were evaluating said “not guilty”, what exactly would you expect to happen?
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:11AM (#26066373)
That the eyewitness account would be discarded, they make for terrible evidence anyway.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tekromancr on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:45AM (#26066885)
I think it is REALLY hard to overstate how dangerously naive a view of the american justice system that is
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 08, 2021 @01:40PM (#26068325)
I don't understand what you mean. I would expect them to make the obviously correct decision, though I'm fully aware that they very often don't.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by tsimionescu on Monday February 08, 2021 @02:43PM (#26069137)
It depends on the definition of 'expect'. You should expect it of them, as in consider it unethical if they don't. You shouldn't expect them to live up to this standard, as in, if you were to bet on it, you'd likely lose.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by buttercraft on Monday February 08, 2021 @10:35AM (#26065884)
Paying investigators per conviction is a sure way to create incentive.
Re:Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA t... by Eric_WVGG on Monday February 08, 2021 @11:30AM (#26066632)
Exactly. "Product X caught 25% more bad guys than Product Y" this stuff just writes itself.

Policing is driven by numbers. There was a whole season of The Wire about this.