Dalvik is hurting Kotlin evolution too, soon loom, value types, the vector api and so much more improvements will not be available on Kotlin for Android but will on the desktop.

Yep, and that is what "I don't need Java" #KotlinFirst movement doesn't get it.

Could you clarify? What's the relation between Kotlin and Java 8 and/or Google?

I think the thrust is that Google would happily convince everybody that the whole world is on Java 8, because that would make both the stalled version of Java on Android look less dated, and further Kotlin a much more modern language than the Java you can get anywhere (I'm not sure how "direct" Google's benefit from Kotlin adoption is... it certainly makes it more respectable as the primary Android lang).

The truth is more like - Kotlin is a much more modern language that the version of Java available on Android, but the gap between Kotlin and any of the previous 2 LTS Java versions is way smaller.

Kotlin is pretty pleasant, though, IMO.

Kotlin is MUCH more pleasant than Java, it's a the same time more strict and less verbose. And it's a good move to have a different language for Dalvik that can reuse the already developed API.

If the Android team was honest about it, they would support the latest Java version and let the developers choose between both languages on their own, without anti-Java marketing.

You don't see iOS team bashing Objective-C on twitter, or doing blog posts and videos, regarding how productive Swift developers are, or using Objective-C 1.0 samples vs Swift.

Sure :) I agree with most of this, it just feels disingenuous to pit Kotlin vs Java 8 and use that to bash Java/elevate Kotlin. IMO Kotlin stands on its own vs Java - nullable types and flow-sensitive typing are real standout features that don't need to use a 7-year old version of Java to compare against.

More or less it.

They use Android Java samples on their Java vs Kotlin talks on why Kotlin.

Then not only is Android Java a cherry picked subset of Java 8, the features they are adding support up to Java 11 are mostly related to standard library, and not all of them.

Then there is the feeling of anti-Java culture in Android, with #KotlinFirst, despite the fact of Android Studio, Android Frameworks, Gradle being Java based.

The irony is that they don't get that as Java and JVM moves forward, Kotlin will eventually be forced to differentiate between JVM and ART worlds.

My take agreeing with this was not well-received elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26009804

I did a lot of Java on Android, and it was not representative of the Java I do on the serverside.

Indeed, Android Java is Google's J++.

Microsoft learned their lesson and are now even an OpenJDK OEM, after buying jClarity.

The SV darling can do no wrongs.