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Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by wheybags on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:48PM (#26008098)
> I don’t know of another company with an invention track record as good as Amazon’s

Come on man, that's just bs. From wikipedia:

> Researchers working at Bell Labs are credited with the development of radio astronomy, the transistor, the laser, the photovoltaic cell, the charge-coupled device (CCD), information theory, the Unix operating system, and the programming languages B, C, C++, S, SNOBOL, AWK, AMPL, and others. Nine Nobel Prizes have been awarded for work completed at Bell Laboratories.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Aperocky on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:44PM (#26008693)
It's too bad that as soon as AT&T gets to commercialize the lab it ran it to the ground.

Previously, the lab was protected by an agreement between the US and AT&T where AT&T has a lawful monopoly but there were only so much it can earn and X% will always go to fundamental research, and that's why the lab was so successful.

That all changed when the federal government decided to break AT&T up in 1983. The for profit baby bells had no incentive to keep the lab and they proceeded to ruin it.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by closeparen on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:04AM (#26011317)
Bell Labs levels of excellence don't normally show up in projects that are just for compliance or government relations. This can't be the whole story.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by pjmorris on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @09:23AM (#26013794)
I once attended a talk by Ron Graham (mathematician who'd once worked at Bell Labs) where he explained that they had applied graph theory to minimize the distance of cable runs to minimize the amount of copper they had to buy.

And, transistors are certainly cheaper and more reliable than the vacuum tubes they replaced.

Economics is still a factor in regulated environments.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Aperocky on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @10:12AM (#26014302)
Bell Labs are also ran by the scientists themselves, with AT&T largely not caring because it has to spend that money anyways.

You can get a good grip of what's going on in the lab in Brian Kernighan's <Unix, A history and a memoir>. It's a good read.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by jacobolus on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:34AM (#26011753)
For an idea about telecom monopolies, read Tim Wu's book The Master Switch.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by pasquinelli on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @10:23PM (#26010247)
The profit motive spurs innovation.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @06:45AM (#26012762)
This assumes peopleare only motivated by greed. That's wrong. In the current class climate it would be fair to say that desperation is feeding innovation. Whether peoplecan be a more innovative when they're not desperate, stressed out, overworked, and surrounded by people worse off than them is a fair question but I suspect that's not where you were going.

Anecdotally, I'm not a fraction creative or innovative when I'm desperate. My risk tolerance increases but that's a disingenuous measure of innovation.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by woobilicious on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @04:43PM (#26019556)
The conflation of greed and profit is disingenuous.

profit, or economic surplus is a requirement for innovation, doesn't matter if it's private, or public spending, what matters is that day to day costs to operate a business or society at large are met before money is spent on risky R&D.

Every rational entity does this, you take your revenue, and spend it on necessities to sustain yourself (like food and shelter), sustain your income (transport etc), and then only spend the surplus on higher risk items (stocks, vacation, luxury foods etc).

If you were on an island, and grew your own food, I assume you would also follow the profit motive, keeping a healthy excess in production for a drought or taking Sunday off to relax, or fixing your dwelling.

We can have a rational discussion about how a company and society at large distributes it's profits, whether it's internally back to employees, R&D or explicit focusing on shareholder value, or using taxes to fund R&D.

But what I assume most people have a problem with is not economic profit, but prioritizing excessive shareholder profit, over everything else. Using shareholder value as an excuse to ignore the real needs of your employees or customers, or even the long term sustainability of the company.

We also have to remember that value is subjective, and when economists talk about profit, they're talking about something subjective. someone who collects stamps for fun, is profitable if they maintain a surplus of stamps. Just like one might buy GME stock to gain in something like social capital.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Ma8ee on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @07:38AM (#26013084)
That might be one of many things they spurs innovation, but the neoliberal idea that greed is the only human impulse that matters is false, primitive, and very sad.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by confidantlake on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:14PM (#26027405)
Yes Newton, Darwin, and Einstein came up with their theories for that sweet profit. /s
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by sib on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:17PM (#26008424)
Not to be difficult, but how many of those were invented in the past 27 years? Bell Labs is (barely even) a shadow of its former self.

If you want to read a great book about when Bell Labs was really Bell Labs:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GSZIWG/

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by arp242 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:26PM (#26009510)
There are quite a few caveats with all of the items he lists:

> We pioneered customer reviews, 1-Click, personalized recommendations, Prime’s insanely-fast shipping, Just Walk Out shopping, the Climate Pledge, Kindle, Alexa, marketplace, infrastructure cloud computing, Career Choice, and much more.

1-click was hardly an "invention" IMO, the Kindle was "just another e-book reader" (arguably the best, but they did not "invent" the concept), Alexa is a Siri clone, and so forth.

Only "infrastructure cloud computing" is something there Amazon really took the lead and invented stuff. Not a small thing, but also hardly worthy of the bold claim in the article. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Sun, and many other companies seem to have done more invention than Amazon.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by garyrob on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @09:43PM (#26009972)
They did NOT pioneer personalized recommendations. Believe me, I know, because out-of-the-blue I got a phone call from Jeff Bezos back in the day, who was interested in my pre-existing recommendation technology. They didn't have any. In the end they got it from a company called Net Perceptions. Eventually they built their own, but the technology was firmly established all over the place by then.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by cachvico on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:58PM (#26009718)
Indeed, 1-click remains the most egregious land grab of the web yet.

"I'm going to patent shopping".

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by newswasboring on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @04:27AM (#26011995)
I think we should not discount "Prime's insanely fast shipping". That is an amalgamation of several innovations and has truly changed the world.

Of course, all this if Amazon has actually invented that and I am not just misinformed.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by oldgradstudent on Thursday February 04, 2021 @07:25AM (#26024761)
> truly changed the world.

Some parts of the continental United States, mostly in large coastal cities.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by goatinaboat on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:23AM (#26011689)
Only "infrastructure cloud computing" is something there Amazon really took the lead and invented stuff. Not a small thing, but also hardly worthy of the bold claim in the article. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Sun, and many other companies seem to have done more invention than Amazon.

Amazon’s secret sauce is in their operational efficiencies and logistics. AWS is great but utility computing conceptually it’s a mainframe bureau from the 1970s.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by rob74 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:37AM (#26011763)
> 1-click was hardly an "invention" IMO

Well, it is according to the US Patent Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Click#Patent), and unfortunately that's the only opinion that counts in this case (at least as far as the US is concerned)

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by getlawgdon on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:35AM (#26012414)
Bezons didn't say "recently." He said he didn't know of another." That includes any/all. And it is bloviation.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by vvanpo on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:50PM (#26008742)
Jeff said

> I don’t know of another company

He didn't say contemporary company.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by denysvitali on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @07:00PM (#26008829)
Well, maybe he is right, he might not be aware of Bell Labs or he might have forgot about it before typing that email
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by pwinnski on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @09:09PM (#26009772)
Or, and hear me out here, he might have lied.

It's funny how many people on this page are having trouble acknowledging that this is a prevaricating puff piece. He wants to tell a story of his success, and leave in a way that doesn't tank the stock. So he lies a bit about the origin of the company, lies a bit more about their accomplishments, and so on.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by denysvitali on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:05AM (#26012219)
I should have added a /s

I'm not protecting him, this is more like a PR stunt rather than a letter to his employees. Given the history, I can safely say that he might not care _that much_ as shown in this open letter

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by rob74 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:32AM (#26011748)
Yeah, that quote is management hyperbole at its best. I wouldn't even call what Amazon does "invention", maybe "innovation" - but Ok, you have to call it "invention" if you want to patent it, like the (in)famous "one-click patent".
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by getlawgdon on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:29AM (#26012381)
Invention is the lower rung. ATT is the much more inventive + innovative company. Innovation disrupts/transforms. Invention sparks anew. In fact, what makes Amazon so wildly successful is not even particularly inventive but optimization driven.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by runarberg on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:15PM (#26009432)
Worth noting also is the company qualifier. To exclude universities from innovations seems arbitrary. Another line of attack is asking how much profit Amazon got from these innovation vs. how much they paid back to the various education systems that produced the skilled labor required.

Jeff Bezos bragging about this is for sure illustrative of the dissonance billionaires have over the value of their companies.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Green_man on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:55PM (#26009699)
Or maybe he said "company" because Amazon is one, and isn't a university. While an interesting conversation could be had about large companies/small companies/university/individual contributions to progress and invention, Bezos isn't necessarily having that conversation, and certainly isn't obliged to contextualize Amazon's achievements that way.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by runarberg on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @09:57PM (#26022066)
I mean, you can say you have the fastest Fiat, no doubt someone will point out that Fiats on average are all slow next to a Ferrari. The you can just point out that we are just talking about Fiats, not Ferraries. But that doesn’t change the fact that the having the fastest Fiat is not that impressive given that Ferraries are an order of magnitude faster then Fiats.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by Green_man on Thursday February 04, 2021 @03:19PM (#26029328)
That's fair, my argument is less that reframing the context is always bad, and more that the original context of [Amazon] in [Companies] makes a lot of sense. I also think that the presented Fiat vs Ferrari is a poor analogy. Why, in your view, are universities so much better than Amazon and other top tech companies? In my view, they're often doing far more than universities on the cutting edge of research. While there are certainly some tradeoffs in a corporate model, I think that universities and tech companies are both effective research organizations, but have different focuses. To use the cars metaphor, it's like some discussion about Ferrari vs Bugatti vs Koenigsegg vs etc. and then someone starts talking about superbikes. Amazon may compete with universities for employees, but they don't directly compete with universities in market share, products, or services.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by simonebrunozzi on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:50PM (#26008133)
Upvoted; and thanks for sharing these details. They might be obvious for you, but I had only a limited knowledge of all that innovation happening at Bell Labs.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by nomercy400 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:10AM (#26011634)
Lucent Technologies once made a video, with many of Bell Labs' inventions, captured in a song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFfdnFOiXUU

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by wheybags on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:54PM (#26008167)
You're in today's lucky 10,000 (https://xkcd.com/1053/) :)
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by orthecreedence on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:26PM (#26008525)
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by avrionov on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @07:59PM (#26009312)
IBM also has 5 Nobel prize winners, but this was different time. I don't think we'll see it again.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by pjmorris on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:30PM (#26009528)
And IBM invented the hard drive, (arguably) computer product lines, the relational database, and standardized the 8-bit byte. Pretty sure I'm leaving stuff out. They're not quite Bell Labs, but they're incredibly influential.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by newswasboring on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @04:31AM (#26012020)
I always find it surprising that things we take for granted today needed to be standardized. Like I can't even imagine computers not using a 8 bit byte.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by TheTrotters on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @12:57PM (#26016678)
Some mentioned to me recently that most teenagers may have never used a non-touch phone. It's obvious to them that iPhones and iPads are around and work the way they do.

But I still remember first using the iPhone 3G in 2008 and how it felt like magic to control a device with my fingers, to zoom into a photo with a simple gesture.

I wonder what technology will make them (and me too!) feel like this. Perhaps an electric car? I've never driven (or even been in one) but from what I hear they're much quieter. Maybe it'll feel like magic if I ever get one.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:58PM (#26018367)
I remember going to the Expo in Spokane in 1974. AT&T had a booth there, where you could dial the same number on a rotary phone and a touch-tone phone, and it would time you so you could see how much faster touch tone was. As a 12-year-old kid, that was my "meet the future of the phone" moment.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by tim333 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:35AM (#26012418)
First computer I used had 36 bit bytes (PDP-10)
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by tgv on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:46AM (#26012471)
Nitpick: they were called words.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by 93po on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @08:53PM (#26009684)
And Amazon has great inventions like... the fire phone.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by vishnugupta on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:18AM (#26011372)
Amazon has had (and continues to have) its share of failed products, a very lot of them in fact. But then that's just how they operate[1]. Given their DNA they wouldn't have been where they are without those failed experiments. One could argue it's just one of those PR angles. But it's not. My last stint at Amazon was in Kindle tablet team. And boy did they experiment with hardware! ~2012 was the year when Amazon made a conscious choice to enter the hardware market to complement their AWS offering. There were close to a dozen devices being worked upon at that time. I think about 5-6 of them failed, some didn't even launch. But then, Eco succeeded and how! And now just look at the hardware devices they have launched.

I tend to look at Amazon and Apple and wonder. Both of them are valued at trillion dollars but the path couldn't have been more different. Apple being very deliberate, very long term, sometimes decade or more long, planning. Amazon on the other hand, hundreds of experiments, most fail and some succeed spectacularly. I remember an Amazon exec comparing these experiments to Cambrian explosion and I think it beautifully captures Amazon's DNA.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/03/jeff-bezo...

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by 93po on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:20PM (#26017081)
Echo came years after Google Now and Siri and Cortana. Taking years old concepts and putting them into a speaker isn't really that inventive. No one is getting a Nobel prize for the Echo.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by hodgesrm on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:54AM (#26011268)
Plus...

* public cloud computing -- Amazon got it to work in a scalable and secure way.

* S3 object storage

* Dynamo -- A distributed, key-value store that ended up in products from S3 to Cassandra

* Redshift -- First cloud SQL data warehouse with ground-breaking ease of use

* RDS -- Cloud relational databases

* Amazon Aurora -- Relational DBMS that pushes the log and store into a virtualized, replicated storage layer

They've been particularly innovative in applications related to data.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by 93po on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:25PM (#26017150)
Crediting amazon for "public cloud computing" is pretty ridiculous. Managed VPS services were a thing when Amazon was still a book store.

Yes, Amazon's services make things easier and in some instances cheaper. None of it was really inventive, though, and definitely not comparable to the list of Bell inventions.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by hodgesrm on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @09:48PM (#26022001)
This can't be a serious argument. Even today there's no cloud provider with the breadth of services that Amazon offers. Amazon didn't just implement cloud technologies like block storage, networking models, and off-board hardware support for virtualization; they created an entirely new programming model on those services.

I've heard the "it's not inventive" arguments like this from companies that tried to compete with Amazon. The one where I worked got creamed.

Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by whalesalad on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @10:13PM (#26010162)
Don’t forget the dash button to replenish charmin ultra at the snap of a finger.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by hashkb on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:15PM (#26010549)
But not fast enough for emergencies.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by julesFromPulp on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @08:47AM (#26013526)
Amazon hardware always seems like it has been a means to and end. That end being buying stuff off amazon.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by rajansaini on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:12PM (#26008366)
Didn't Yann LeCun do important work on CNNs there as well?
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by lr1970 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @06:34PM (#26008599)
Yes, this was after ma Bell was broken up and Yann ended up in the AT&T Research. And then AT&T management closed the whole project. Glory days of Bell Labs are all in the distant past, unfortunately.
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:55PM (#26018334)
Also, XEROX. Invented the laser printer, the mouse, and the GUI. Those are a bit more significant than one-click checkout...
Re:Email from Jeff Bezos to employees by dgs_sgd on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @10:59PM (#26010460)
I can't be the only one who read "Come on man" in Joe Biden's voice.