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Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by rgbrenner on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:23AM (#25988028)
What does "moral ground" mean? You mean, if I (a person that lives in the US) sees someone lose a human right, I should shut up, because some other guy who also lives in the US, who I've never met did something that I never approved of or endorsed?

Like we should all be ok with an individual being victimized because anyone who wants to say something is guilty of something else by association... I guess the victims should accept that no one should help them. How sad.

The truth is I think people who trot out this line should ask themselves who they're helping. The sides aren't the US vs China... the sides are those on the side of human rights and liberty and those that seek to deprive others of their rights. And when you stand up with your words to help those on the side of anti-human rights, you are the one on the wrong side... and no one on the human rights side gives a damn what you think is hypocritical because those actions were never from our side.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:49AM (#25988156)
> You mean, if I (a person that lives in the US) sees someone lose a human right, I should shut up, because some other guy who also lives in the US, who I've never met did something that I never approved of or endorsed?

No, of course! I agree with you: individual citizens should have the right to talk about anything, there's free speech after all.

What I mean is that if you are too focused on the (truly horrible) injustices perpetrated by other countries while you consistently turn a blind eye to the injustices perpetrated by your own, then you are not being very useful. For example, in your case, the last three US administrations have been outrageously war-mongering zealots, starting wars all over the globe, participating in the violent overthrow of several governments for petty economic interests, and routinely engaging in extra-judicial killings abroad. While you can talk about whatever you find interesting, your critiques of China are not really going anywhere, but you could be somewhat effective in opposing the violent policies of your own democratic country. Call your representatives! Make them know that you don't approve of U.S. warmongering international politics!

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by esperent on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:07AM (#25988287)
Can you please for just a minute stop trying to make everything about the US? It's exhausting. Every single discussion on the internet, no matter what country we're talking about, there's always some American guy (usually several) that comes in and tries to change the topic to focus on the US. Other countries exist, and deserve to be discussed and criticised on their own merits. It's not always about you Americans.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by thesteamboat on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:46AM (#25988604)
I think you're out of luck simply because Americans dominate the English speaking internet. According to loosely eyeballed data [0], Americans account for over 20% of English speakers (a commanding plurality) and over 60% of native speakers. It might not be fair, and there are plenty of valid reasons to want to talk about other countries and other perspectives, but it's going to remain the default perspective of the English speaking internet unless demographics substantially shift.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-s...

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:53AM (#25988673)
I'm not from the US, not even from the American continent. It was the OP that introduced this country to the conversation, but what I say applies mostly unchanged to France (where I live).
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by dnautics on Monday February 01, 2021 @09:06AM (#25988773)
Technically the last US president didn't start any wars (as far as I can tell). Even presided over a net drawdown in US military presence around the world. Still did extrajudical killings, though. Previous president to that did start wars, presided over a net drawdown, and did extrajudicial killings.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by pqs on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:26AM (#25988034)
Are you sure the West has always been defending human rights in its interventions in other countries? We should separate the justification for meddling in another country's affairs with the root cause of the meddling.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by rgbrenner on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:27AM (#25988038)
Are you sure the West has always been defending human rights in its interventions in other countries?

Thats not what I said. Re-read it? I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by pessimizer on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:37AM (#25988090)
> The sides aren't the US vs China... the sides are those on the side of human rights and liberty and those that seek to deprive others of their rights.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by rgbrenner on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:56AM (#25988208)
What's the difficulty in separating those two things?

I'm not talking about entities or countries... I'm talking about human beings with names.

On one side there are people that deprive others of their rights. For example: That includes Xi Jinping. It also includes every person that helped overthrow Iran's democracy. It includes US citizens that attempt to deprive others of their voting rights.

On the other side you have those that advocate for human rights. That includes MLK Jr; Gandhi standing against the british; Tutu against apartheid; the Hong Kong protestors; etc. It also includes everyday people in China that work and advocate for human rights.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by thesteamboat on Monday February 01, 2021 @09:12AM (#25988820)
You are substituting "the West" for rgbrenner's "those on the side of human rights", and in doing so are missing the point of his argument.

"The West" as a term is very broad and sufficiently undefined[0] that it makes a great rhetorical cudgel (both for people who support it and those against it). Unfortunately that same slipperiness makes it challenging for people trying to speak clearly. While "the West" has often been loosely aligned with human rights (some defending/embracing them, some merely claiming them as magic words) they certainly have their problems.

Your argument seems to be do the following: substitute an inferior term into rgbrenner's argument, and then complaining that your chosen term is inferior.

rgbrenner:> The sides aren't US and China, they're X and anti-X

you:> You say the sides are Y and anti-X, but Y isn't X

[0]: Do we mean America? America + Western Europe? Are we including Canada? How about Mexico? All colonial powers? Does Eastern Europe count? How about Australia? Or even Japan? You might have a particular definition in mind, but it's likely other people have different understandings.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by refurb on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:12AM (#25988326)
So you'd argue "the West" had no moral authority to fight against Nazi Germany? The USSR and the Iron Curtain? Defend South Korea? Because "it has zero moral ground to criticize, as we've been doing exactly that since, well, forever."?

Your statement is just illogical.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:18AM (#25988363)
Nazi Germany was pretty much "the west", I don't know what do you mean about that. But just to be clear: yes, I think that it was wrong for Nazi Germany to invade their eastern neighbors. In more modern terms, I'd say that we shouldn't have sponsored the overthrow of Libya and given it to religious fundamentalists, for example.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by refurb on Monday February 01, 2021 @09:47AM (#25989096)
You said Western countries have no moral high ground because they invaded other countries. Western countries (US, U.K., etc) invaded Nazi Germany. So by your argument they shouldn’t have done that? You can never invade another country and still have the moral high ground?
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Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by square_usual on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:50AM (#25988168)
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by math on Thursday February 04, 2021 @01:53PM (#26028534)
FWIW, I didn't mean to suggest this was coordinated.

I take the point that my comment here is of low value. I do believe related issues will perhaps turn out to be the most important of my lifetime though, and it's unusually tricky to know how they should be tackled in the public arena. Apologies for me failing to do so appropriately here.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:01AM (#25987908)
The top comment criticizes China, I'm not really sure that what you say is accurate. There's much to criticize about China, but we westerners are in a really bad place to do so, lest we want to sound either condescending or hypocritical.
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Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by dang on Monday February 01, 2021 @05:05PM (#25994701)
Hey, your comments have been breaking the site guidelines so consistently and so badly lately that even though you have been a good HN user in the past, we're on the verge of banning you. Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamewar comments? We have already tried several times to get you to stop this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25709648

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585980

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25389847

...but your account is standing out right now as one of the ones that's doing the most damage to this place by lowering discussion quality in many threads. I don't want to ban you, so please stop doing this! For example, posts like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25948268 are totally unacceptable on this site, regardless of what you're arguing for or against.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by oefrha on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:04AM (#25987920)
Let me unravel the mystery for you. I downvoted two comments “criticizing China” into the gray, and upvoted this one “criticizing the West”. What now, gonna accuse me of being an agent, a shill, or something?

Of course I flagged this one for breaking site guidelines, too.

(Sorry dang for knowingly breaking site guidelines with this comment. Just feel like given the constant accusations whenever there’s a thread like this, sometimes one has to show themself. I don’t think your “I looked into the users who downvoted and they’re not shills” is actually working.)

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by newbie578 on Monday February 01, 2021 @06:51AM (#25987849)
Why do we still try to equate China and the US? They are not the same, I don’t know if it is some kind of a self-hate issue, but the West has it better. Period. As long as I can go to jail for saying Winnie The Pooh, China sucks and we should not encourage such regimes.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by gtufano on Monday February 01, 2021 @06:58AM (#25987892)
It is currently probably way better (USA vs. China). Especially when seen from Europe (or USA)... looking at it from the point of view of a South-American citizen probably don't give the same result... and it's not self-hate, just history
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by leesalminen on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:44AM (#25988585)
In Chile, there has been a growing anti-China sentiment over the past several years as they began dominating the retail sector, pushing out many locals’ jobs.
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:55AM (#25988689)
As opposed to the USA for, you know, actually staging a military coup in there?
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by leesalminen on Monday February 01, 2021 @10:39AM (#25989574)
Yes, absolutely. I’m an American who lived in Chile. In that time I received animosity from exactly 2 people.

The current rhetoric against China is much more prevalent, perhaps 40% of people.

I think it has to do with the fact that the USA issues were 2 generations ago while the China issues are happening now.

Also, most people understand that the decisions made by ones’ government are not controlled by the people. People don’t have any control over what their politicians do. This is a globally understood truth.

Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by enriquto on Monday February 01, 2021 @11:03AM (#25989810)
> Also, most people understand that the decisions made by ones’ government are not controlled by the people. People don’t have any control over what their politicians do. This is a globally understood truth.

I think that both of these problems are direct consequences of the military coup. China's ability to have such a big influence the Chilean market is a direct consequence of the savage capitalist system installed by the Chicago boys. After all, it's a free market, isn't it?

Regarding "People don’t have any control over what their politicians do"... well, that's a capitalist representative democracy for you! It is like that precisely by design, not by accident.

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Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by meiraleal on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:14AM (#25988344)
Maybe because China is ~15,000km away while the US is ~5,000
Re:Internet disrupted in Myanmar amid military coup by lucian1900 on Monday February 01, 2021 @07:11AM (#25987974)
You can’t go to jail for that. If you spend any time on Chinese social media you’ll see how silly of a notion it is.

Perhaps you should consider who convinced you of this falsehood.