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Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dcolkitt on Sunday January 31, 2021 @08:26PM (#25984543)
It should be noted that Melvin Capital returned over 50% in 2020[1], 44% in 2019[2], and has averaged above 30% annual returns since inception[3].

In other words, even though this is definitely painful, even inclusive of this event, it's one of the best performing hedge funds of the past decade.

[1]https://www.wsj.com/articles/citadel-point72-to-invest-2-75-... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-19/cohen-cub... [3]https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/ct-biz-reddit-wall-str...

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:19PM (#25985149)
Context is important, so the Nasdaq 100 (as represented by the QQQ ETF) returned ~49% in 2020, 39% in 2019, and 24% over the last 5 years. Beating the indexes by 5-6 points consistently is very good, but it's important to keep in mind that most equities were doing really well over that period.

(Edit: It's been reported elsewhere that these numbers are net of fees. However, it's entirely possible that for taxable accounts, tax considerations still narrow the performance gap. And of course, the QQQ offers instant liquidity and did not drop 53% this month.)

Either way, the money currently in there is very likely to underperform the indexes over the next 5 years (because they need to return 100% to get back to the pre-GME position).

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dcolkitt on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:26AM (#25985823)
The correct benchmark for a hedge fund is T-bills, not the S&P or the Nasdaq. That's because hedge funds are an absolute return product that offers an income stream uncorrelated to the market.

This may sound counterintuitive, but it's the basis of modern portfolio theory. The price that an investor should be willing to pay for an investment has to do with its beta to the broader market.

Think of it this way, imagine you could access the S&P 500 in a parallel universe. It has the same return characteristics as the normal S&P 500, but in any given year moves independently. How much does this improve your portfolio? Intuitively you'd think it's not worth anything. It's only as good as your current investments, so what's the point.

But in fact modern portfolio theory tells us that it's a huge improvement. Investing 50/50 in S&P and Bizarro-S&P, substantially improves the amount of return you can access for the same risk. That's because the two diversify each other, and the blend either reduces risk by 30% or lets you leverage up and increase expected returns by 30%.

You're saying, "maybe Melvin isn't a good investment, because it seems about equal to the S&P". But the point is an investment that's about equal to the S&P, yet uncorrelated to the S&P is massively valuable. Even if it has big drawdowns, you typically don't care as long as those drawdowns tend to occur during times when the rest of your portfolio is doing fine.

This is the same reason that a 60/40 stock-bond portfolio has massively outperformed 100% stocks historically. Even though bonds themselves return less than stocks.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Monday February 01, 2021 @02:18AM (#25986398)
This is good background and all makes sense, but in the context of Melvin we don't have enough data to know whether any of this is true in their case vs just being part of their pitch. (This is essentially true of all hedge funds.)

What appears to be the case is they were edging the QQQ until they incinerated half their capital in a week on a bad bet and poor risk controls. So we now know they are uncorrelated with the S&P, but unfortunately we only know they are uncorrelated to the downside. (We don't know if their outperformance has been a result of real alpha or a strong market plus leverage.)

We saw a lot of these funds in the strong bull market of the 90s and the takeaway I remember was that it's impossible to know ahead of time who's going to blow up and lose all/most of your money.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by Voloskaya on Monday February 01, 2021 @09:09AM (#25988806)
> The correct benchmark for a hedge fund is T-bills

T-Bills are virtually risk free, which is not the case of hedge funds, so why would you compare one with the other?

> But the point is an investment that's about equal to the S&P, yet uncorrelated to the S&P

How can you say that a hedge fund's return and the S&P are uncorrelated? They may not be identical but they are very strongly correlated.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by gvhst on Monday February 01, 2021 @10:20AM (#25989375)
Many hedge fund's run a factor neutral (market + other risk factors are hedged out of the portfolio) long short book. If done right (and thats the catch) there should be low correlation to S&P.

T-bills are the performance benchmark for hedge funds but not the risk benchmark (which is generally something riskier). This can sound counterintuitive as T-bills are a very low hurdle to clear. However, in a downturn scenario generally causes rates to fall, increasing t-bill return when the rest of the market goes down. In that case its a very difficult hurdle to clear.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by Voloskaya on Monday February 01, 2021 @10:24AM (#25989424)
Do you happen to have any resource that dives into this? This is really interesting would love to know more about how this works in details.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Monday February 01, 2021 @04:18PM (#25994097)
Not the OP, but _When Genius Failed_ by Lowenstein was a good book for understanding what happens in the asterisk ("if done right").
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by Voloskaya on Monday February 01, 2021 @04:52PM (#25994521)
Thanks! I'll check it out.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by koonsolo on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:14AM (#25986634)
> Investing 50/50 in S&P and Bizarro-S&P, substantially improves the amount of return you can access for the same risk.

I can see how this would lower the volatility of your portfolio. But how do you improve the return in this scenario?

> This is the same reason that a 60/40 stock-bond portfolio has massively outperformed 100% stocks historically

How is this possible? If I invest 100% in stocks, my return after 10 years is higher than 60/40 stock-bond. So why do you say the latter outperforms it?

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by londons_explore on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:26AM (#25986706)
> I can see how this would lower the volatility of your portfolio. But how do you improve the return in this scenario?

Leverage. You can translate reduced risk into greater returns by getting loans to invest more.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by lultimouomo on Monday February 01, 2021 @10:48AM (#25989654)
When the stock crashes, you can sell some bonds, which have not crashed, and buy stock on the cheap. When the stock recovers, you sell some stock and buy bonds. Rinse and repeat.

(You don't need to try and time the market for this to work. You can have a threshold so that you rebalance when you deviate from your target allocation more than X%)

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by koonsolo on Monday February 01, 2021 @01:26PM (#25991604)
I don't see how this would outperform 100% stocks over 10 years.

Or in other words, show me the numbers.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by lultimouomo on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @03:45AM (#25998635)
Are you asking if it can outperform total stock (it's pretty clear it can) or if it did?

According to https://www.justetf.com/en/etf-strategy-builder.html (click on "show simulation" and it will show the historical analysis) a 80/20 allocation slightly outperforms total stock over the last 20 years, while having lower volatility at the same time. I did not run the numbers myself.

Considering only the last 10 years seems pretty limited, as you are ignoring both the dot-com bust and the 2008 crisis.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by Erwin on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:27PM (#25993378)
You can use a site like this to compare: https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/total-stock-market/ versus https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/classic-60-40/

Mixing bonds gives you a slightly higher safe withdrawal rate but you do lose 2 percentage points average yearly returns.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by koonsolo on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:58PM (#25993837)
Yeah, that's what I thought. So I don't get how it can "outperform" it
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by letsgoyeti on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:57AM (#25985992)
Thanks for the explanation - one question though, how do we know that Melvin (or any other security/fund) is not correlated to the S&P?
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dcolkitt on Monday February 01, 2021 @01:03AM (#25986029)
To be fair, it probably is. Most equity hedge funds are probably closer to a 50% correlation, and should be benchmarked accordingly (i.e. half T-bills/half S&P). Investors would be able to see its historical monthly returns and regress them against the equity index.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by hasperdi on Monday February 01, 2021 @05:59AM (#25987573)
Thanks for the informative comment. Could you give some pointers where I can learn more about this modern portfolio theory?
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by weeboid on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:36AM (#25988526)
Doesn’t this 50% loss apply to the cum sum of gains though?

That is, if I started with $1 and made $1,000, a 50% loss would still be $500

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Monday February 01, 2021 @05:24PM (#25994920)
Yes you have more money than you started with, but you will still be down compared with an index that did not have a 50% drawdown at any point.

- Unless you were late to the party. If you didn't get in the fund until (say) November, you have lost money.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by jabberwcky on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:46PM (#25985309)
It should also be noted Melvin would not have achieved these results without leverage, which is precisely why a single holding almost destroyed the fund. Comparing unlevered benchmark index return to ultra-levered fund return simply doesn't work. The S&P most certainly outperformed Melvin on a risk-adjusted basis due to this single drawdown alone.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dcolkitt on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:05PM (#25985414)
> The S&P most certainly outperformed Melvin on a risk-adjusted basis due to this single drawdown alone.

The S&P had a 54% drawdown in 2008.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by jabberwcky on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:14PM (#25985458)
Which could have been anywhere between an 81% to 810% drawdown in a typical leveraged strategy. Very few levered positions would have survived it without stopping out or completely blowing up, but an unlevered position absolutely could have -- and most (long term buy and hold) did
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dcolkitt on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:08AM (#25985744)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Most hedge funds did significantly better than the S&P in 2008. They were down, but nowhere to the same degree.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by autokad on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:33PM (#25984934)
if I gained 50%, 44%, followed by a 53% loss with a 2% fee, I'd be under water for the last 3 years, but the sp500 would have yielded me a 37% gain - virtually no fees. I'd rather the sp500 over these guys
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by mledu on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:59PM (#25985045)
This is the point Nassim Nicholas Taleb makes in his book Fooled by Randomness. In a long enough timeline luck plays a big part in performance. People or firms like Melvin can perform well in a short timeline but when you stretch the timeline out the reality becomes clearer.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by cpascal on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:18PM (#25985479)
This reminds me of a metaphor made by Burton G. Malkiel in “A Random Walk Down Wall Street”. He attempts to give a possible explanation to why there are star traders or funds that greatly outperform the market. It’s something I like to remind myself of from time-to-time.

The metaphor was a coin flipping tournament. You have a bracket of players who flip a coin against an opponent. In each matchup, the player that flips a heads advances to the next round to face another opponent who won a parallel matchup in the previous round. Suppose this is a 100 round tournament, that would mean the eventual winner would have had to flip a heads 100 times to win. You might look at this coin flipper and think they are an extraordinary coin flipper. That they have some innate ability to flip a coin and make sure it lands with the head sides up. In reality, it was just random chance that they flipped the coin correctly, they do not posses any more coin flipping talent than anyone else. They just got really lucky. You can potentially look at a successful hedge fund or trader through this same lens. They have survived the proverbial coin flipping tournament and random chance was on their side.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by robjan on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:38PM (#25985594)
This was a common investment scam in the past. Create an email newsletter, split it in half and give opposing advice to each side. You then keep ramping up the fees to the winners until eventually they become one of the losers. Once the list gets too small, create a new entity and start again.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by aaron695 on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:31AM (#25985840)
I think you'll find it's not a real implementation. OP's example requires 2^100 people ~10^30

It's a similar problem with the email list.

50+ years ago Scrooge McDuck also had this happen to him. He had a treasure map for gold (In Antarctica I think) which he got conditional on profit sharing and he found gold.

The map sellers ran this scam, sold heaps of different maps because someone would find gold.

I personally don't think Scrooge McDuck was just lucky though.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by imtringued on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:52AM (#25986848)
I think this is the first instance of plot armor protecting exclusively against financial loss.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by nobrains on Monday February 01, 2021 @02:44AM (#25986499)
Either I did not understand it, or this doesn't make sense. If the head flipper moves ahead, then that person, truly flipped 100 heads.

Your example would have made sense, if you talking about the 100 times consecutive winner in a coin flip match, with each match, the winner can be heads or tails.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by cambalache on Monday February 01, 2021 @12:27AM (#25985826)
Good idea, but bad example: a 100 round tournament (single elimination) would require 2^100 humans, that is a 20 orders of magnitude increase!! You could do 32 rounds at most.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by dvngnt_ on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:37PM (#25985587)
What if no one gets tails on a flip?

Is it the first person to first get heads or does it have to be consecutive

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by weeboid on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:38AM (#25988541)
I read somewhere that holding s&p for 30 years at any arbitrary period, worst you could was 2x
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by graeme on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:44PM (#25984976)
Yeah equivalent percentage losses cost more than gains.

Starting from 100, if you swing 50% up 50% down you get: 150, 75, 112.5, 56.25, 84.375, 42.18, 63.28, 31.64....

You need a 100% gain to make up for a 50% loss.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by fractionalhare on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:49PM (#25985000)
Those are net of fees. They averaged over 30% annually over 5 years, net of fees. Investors with them since the beginning received a cumulative total return of nearly 400%. That puts you far ahead of SPY over the same time period.

And of course, the risk profile may be different. Equal returns can be more or less appealing depending on the risk profile.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by autokad on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:56PM (#25985029)
alternatively, you could invest with arkk and not relying on a fund that shorts a gme 140% :P
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by blackrock on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:42PM (#25985291)
Your 37% gain on the S&P is fake.

Yes, the gains are real, but not for the reasons that you think.

The true driver behind that 37% gain is the Fed. They’ve been juicing the market for the past 12 years!

The fundamentals, ie Warren Buffet style investing, has not improved. And the moment that the Fed stops with its market manipulation, is when the S&P will fall.

The play is that, when the government gives you free money, then go long. And ride it until the wheels fall off.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by fractionalhare on Sunday January 31, 2021 @08:31PM (#25984577)
> It should be noted that Melvin Capital returned over 50% in 2020[1], 44% in 2019[2], and has averaged above 30% annual returns since inception[3].

And those returns are all net of fees.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:16PM (#25985130)
I'm curious; do you know that from some document from the fund? The linked source doesn't appear to support that conclusion.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by fractionalhare on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:37PM (#25985260)
It's included in the WSJ article about the Point72 and Citadel investment.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by runako on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:49PM (#25985328)
Thanks!
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by 0xy on Sunday January 31, 2021 @09:35PM (#25984940)
Considering other hedge funds reloaded shorts after getting decimated, there's no indication their losses will stay at 53%.

Like a bankrupt gambler returning to the casino after getting bailed out by their parents, Melvin will be back to the shorting slot machines soon enough.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by gruez on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:06PM (#25985077)
...except that unlike slot machines, the probability of you winning does increase the second time around. It costs more money (in aggregate) to pump from $20 to $200, than from $200 to $2000. I'd also imagine that the buy side will gradually lose steam once meme fatigue starts to set in.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by 0xy on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:20PM (#25985159)
TSLA's valuation can only be described as extremely optimistic, hedging on "huge bubble" status. I don't think we've seen the brakes on the buy side at all, considering the buy side has been artificially constrained by limits and restrictions.

Is $2,000 GME possible? Of course it is. It's not even unprecedented considering the other businesses valued at billions of dollars with shaky business models.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by imtringued on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:58AM (#25986884)
>Is $2,000 GME possible? Of course it is.

It is very likely that it reaches this price during the short squeeze and crashes a day later.

Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by blackrock on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:44PM (#25985300)
At $2000, GME can reinvent itself and become a software/hardware tech company.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by gruez on Sunday January 31, 2021 @11:42PM (#25985622)
...only if they issue shares, which would surely tank prices.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by adflux on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:19AM (#25986668)
As AMC wisely did in the past week. They are saved by this hype
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by imtringued on Monday February 01, 2021 @03:57AM (#25986876)
It's just a matter of holding long enough at this point. The price is high enough.
Re:Hedge fund Melvin sustains 53% loss after Reddit onslaught by antman on Monday February 01, 2021 @04:29AM (#25987079)
Have they been succesful using the tactic that now backfired? Eager to see how what returns they will have in the future.