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Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by PragmaticPulp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:10PM (#25953780)
One of Robinhood’s innovations was that they gave everyone a margin account, but hid the details.

When you transfer money in, Robinhood doesn’t actually get that money until a couple days later. They allow you to buy stock immediately, but that happens (transparently) on margin. Robinhood is loaning you the money to make it happen.

Likewise, when you buy or sell a stock, the trade doesn’t settle for t+2 days. Robinhood again transparently loans you the money while waiting for the stock trade to settle.

If Robinhood exceeds the SEC-mandated limits for margin they can extend, or their creditors decide it’s too risky to continue loaning them the money, the whole show grinds to a halt. They chose to press the pause button on the primary meme stocks driving them toward this cliff. I imagine the only alternative was to hit the pause button on the entire platform until the credit issue was resolved, but it’s much harder to get additional credit when your service has ground to a halt.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by TuringNYC on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:31PM (#25953939)
>> When you transfer money in, Robinhood doesn’t actually get that money until a couple days later. They allow you to buy stock immediately, but that happens (transparently) on margin.

The solution would be to disallow this feature, not to stop trading of certain tickets on all accounts, most of which are seasoned and funded

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by PragmaticPulp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:46PM (#25954040)
The cost of trading meme stocks also increased exponentially due to regulatory requirements.

Full explanation with math here: https://twitter.com/kralctrebor/status/1354952686165225478?s...

Also, it’s not realistic to expect them to completely retool their entire app and infrastructure in a matter of hours to disallow margin-based trades of only certain securities. If this was a long-term concern I’m sure they’d do exactly what you suggested. However, this even ramped up in only a couple of days. Let’s be realistic about what they can re-engineer, test, and deploy to end users in that timeframe.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by tomerico on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:32AM (#25954379)
It's also hard to believe that their margin based algorithm doesn't have parameters that can be tuned easily. It's not the first time that a single stock has crazy volatility and speculation.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by jcranmer on Friday January 29, 2021 @01:02AM (#25954554)
A financial institution didn't foresee a black swan financial event? Color me shocked.

If I'm reading the Twitter thread right, what killed Robinhood was the component of ">30% of your flow is in one stock", which is something that I could absolutely see never having happened to Robinhood until now.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by TuringNYC on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:57AM (#25954535)
If you want to side with current customers, another easy fix is to disallow new customers (if they cannot allow auto-margin for new customers.) How hard a change would it be to disable new account creation...at worst commenting out /customer/new on the route file for a day until they can fix the actual problem?
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by jcranmer on Friday January 29, 2021 @01:08AM (#25954578)
To be perfectly honest, given the way that narrative of the entire debacle has been built up to "hoi polloi stick it to the evil financial gurus", I don't think there is anything Robinhood could have done that wouldn't have immediately been spun as "THEY'RE TRYING TO BAIL OUT THE HEDGE FUNDS!"
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by tekknik on Friday January 29, 2021 @11:31PM (#25966072)
> Also, it’s not realistic to expect them to completely retool their entire app and infrastructure in a matter of hours to disallow margin-based trades of only certain securities.

They do have the ability to change the margin requirements for a particular stock, as well as disable “instant deposits”. They don’t let you withdrawal money until it’s cleared so adding the ability to hold the funds in the account until they clear wouldn’t be hard if it’s not already there.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by nv-vn on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:00AM (#25954159)
I suspect that removing that functionality would take more work than can be accomplished in 1 day, which is why they temporarily suspended it and why they're adding "limited buys" tomorrow
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by flatline on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:32PM (#25953943)
Fidelity - and probably other brokerages - let you buy with unsettled cash, you just can’t sell and buy something else until the cash settles or it’s a good faith violation. You can also enable margin and do it that way. That’s an interesting approach RH takes. Is margin just available and automatic when you sign up? I saw a lot of people on wsb apparently buying on margin and having no idea what it was.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by SpicyLemonZest on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:38PM (#25953997)
It is. The default Robinhood account is a margin account branded as Robinhood Instant; if you don't want to trade on margin, you have to downgrade (their term, not mine) to Robinhood Cash.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by totalZero on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:04AM (#25954184)
Robinhood Instant is not the same thing as a margin account. You're thinking of Robinhood Gold. FINRA rules say you can't open a margin account with less than $2k.

Margin investing is offered to eligible customers through Robinhood Gold, a suite of premium investing products including Nasdaq Level 2 market data and Morningstar Research Reports, for only $5 a month. The first $1,000 of margin is included in the $5 monthly fee. After that, customers pay a flat 2.5% yearly interest rate on any amount used above $1,000. Our pricing is straightforward and the same for every eligible customer, regardless of their account size.

https://blog.robinhood.com/news/2020/12/21/robinhood-lowers-...

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by SpicyLemonZest on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:38AM (#25954414)
I don't use Robinhood myself, so I could be mistaken or confused about something, but their documentation specifically describes Instant as a margin account. (https://robinhood.com/us/en/support/articles/robinhood-accou...)
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by totalZero on Friday January 29, 2021 @07:12AM (#25956473)
That choice of language seems very poor IMO, because the regulation clearly specifies the $2k number for margin trading of any size. Take a look for yourself:

"(4) equity of at least $2,000 except that cash need not be deposited in excess of the cost of any security purchased (this equity and cost of purchase provision shall not apply to "when distributed" securities in a cash account). The minimum equity requirement for a "pattern day trader" is $25,000 pursuant to paragraph (f)(8)(B)(iv)a. of this Rule.

Withdrawals of cash or securities may be made from any account which has a debit balance, "short" position or commitments, provided it is in compliance with Regulation T and Rules 400 through 406 of SEC Customer Margin Requirements for Security Futures and Rules 41.42 through 41.49 under the CEA, and after such withdrawal the equity in the account is at least the greater of $2,000 ($25,000 in the case of a "pattern day trader") or an amount sufficient to meet the maintenance margin requirements of this Rule."

https://www.finra.org/rules-guidance/rulebooks/finra-rules/4...

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by cameldrv on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:43AM (#25954444)
Obviously Fidelity is taking on some risk by letting you do this if the transaction does not clear. However, normally, customers depositing are going to buy a variety of normal, not too volatile assets. If your deposit doesn't clear, they just sell whatever you bought and get their money back.

If a large percentage of their customers were new, young, fairly low income (and thus more likely to have their transactions bounce), and they all wanted to buy long positions in a stock that very likely could drop 90% in the next two days, the risk is far higher.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by llboston on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:22PM (#25953870)
> When you transfer money in, Robinhood doesn’t actually get that money until a couple days later. They allow you to buy stock immediately, but that happens (transparently) on margin. Robinhood is loaning you the money to make it happen.

Then they can reduce the purchasing power for certain stocks to just the money already transferred.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by PragmaticPulp on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:31PM (#25953938)
There are additional capital requirements for brokering stocks, as mandated by regulations including Dodd-Frank, that made it extremely expensive to handle GME trades during the frenzy.

This thread explains the math in detail: https://twitter.com/kralctrebor/status/1354952686165225478?s...

I know the popular narrative is that this was some sort of conspiracy, but the truth is likely far more banal. Unprecedented volatility and volume are exceeding the limits of these systems. No one budgeted for a single stock dominating news headlines and swinging wildly while millions of retail investors tried to enter at the exact same time.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by cacarr on Friday January 29, 2021 @01:40PM (#25960727)
They can't have a democratizing investment brand, and then intervene in a way that wildly (and predictably) favors the fat-cats.

Whatever changes they make, those changes need to enable them to not intervene in that manner ever again.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by KingOfCoders on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:17AM (#25954278)
Thanks for the insight. Funnily to me this looks like a prime example of a leaky abstraction [1] - so this not only happens in software architecture.

[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/11/11/the-law-of-leaky-a...

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by miguelrochefort on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:16AM (#25954270)
They really should have said that from the start:

"To let you trade instantly, we lend you money. Because lending is risky, we won't let you use it on high-volatility stocks like GME. We screwed up by applying the same restrictions to confirmed deposits, which no longer involve loan risks. Our team is working on a fix."

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by spamizbad on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:21AM (#25954306)
So then how is HFT a thing then? Wouldn't millions of yet-to-be-cleared trades over a few days require them to hold a massive amount of collateral?
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by edgyquant on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:29AM (#25954351)
The firms engaging in HFT have that collateral, and are usually hooked directly into multiple exchanges.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by protastus on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:47PM (#25954052)
> One of Robinhood’s innovations was that they gave everyone a margin account, but hid the details.

In the old days one would have to formally request margin. Then the broker would give you stern warnings, have you sign a form, mail you a nice booklet explaining margin, options and shorting. I assumed it was a legal requirement, but maybe not?

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by totalZero on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:57PM (#25954136)
> Robinhood again transparently loans you the money while waiting for the stock trade to settle.

Well, kind of. If you use the proceeds to do another stock trade, that second trade also settles T+2, so it doesn't require RH to put any of its own capital up.

(Options settle T+1.)

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by blhack on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:33PM (#25953948)
I had an etrade account 15 years ago that let me sell a stock, then immediately withdraw that money from an ATM. Were they doing something different?
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by TheKarateKid on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:33PM (#25959924)
They could've easily suspended new signups instead, and/or limited transactions to only those with settled cash.

They didn't announce anything to anyone until it went into effect, despite programming their systems in advance for the changes.

Every explanation they've provided has a million holes in it.

Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by boatsie on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:34PM (#25953954)
If this were the core issue, they should have disabled new account creation or funding, right? Why could I open an account and buy Google stock, as it would also technically be on margin.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by mason55 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:46PM (#25954047)
The requirements for Robinhoods collateral are partly based on volatility
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by gerash on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:42PM (#25954019)
They only allow you to invest up to $1K immediately even if you transfer larger amounts. to be able to use the rest you need to wait.
Re:Transfer Stocks Out of Your Robinhood Account by truncate on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:46PM (#25954048)
Is there a fees/interest for using that $1000 margin that comes with free account?