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Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by abhiyerra on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:34AM (#25944450)
Healthcare and Basic Income would do a lot to encourage entrepreneurship. I had to also wait till I paid off my student loans. There are a whole lot of shackles if you come from a humble background to starting a company full time.

On the other hand it has never been cheaper to start a side hustle.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by umvi on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:28PM (#25945262)
> Healthcare and Basic Income would do a lot to encourage entrepreneurship

Would it though? From what I understand EU has way better social safety nets, yet much smaller entrepreneurship rates compared to USA.

Counter-intuitively, limitations drive innovations. When your resources are limited, you are forced to innovate. When you have infinite resources, you tend to waste it. Ever notice that when you have infinite time, you waste it doing nothing, but when your time is extremely constrained, you tend to use it much more effectively? Same thing happens with companies and money. Read: NASA, Texas Instruments developing laser guided bombs, etc.

For example, because TI had such a limited budget for developing laser guided bombs, they couldn't afford a wind tunnel like their defense-contractor competition. So they dropped scale models of bombs into swimming pools and performed mathematical transformations on the measurements. TI's design ended up being far more innovative and outperformed their money-flush competitors[0]

All that said, I think there is some truth to what you say. If healthcare were decoupled from employers, I would be much more likely to leave my current company and start my own since that is one thing holding me back.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paveway

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by dbingham on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:33PM (#25946572)
1. Europe has healthcare but not basic income.

2. Innovation and entrepreneurship are not the same thing. Innovation is coming up with something new, entrepreneurship is starting a new business to make money. The former does not always lead to the latter, and the latter does not always require the former (in fact, it rarely does).

3. What the research in this study shows is that limitations of the financial and survival sort do not drive entrepreneurship.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by cloudier on Friday January 29, 2021 @12:02AM (#25954172)
The book "The Trap: selling out to stay afloat in winner-take-all America" discusses the effect of healthcare on entrepreneurship:[1]

> It's a truism that American culture celebrates entrepreneurs. The opinion polls show exactly what you expect: Americans are incredibly entrepreneurship-minded. A 2005 survey showed that 28 percent of Americans have considered setting up their own businesses, compared to only 15 percent of Europeans. Yet the employment statistics reveal that Americans are far less likely to actually do it — 14.7 percent of the European workforce is self-employed, compared with only 7.3 percent of Americans. American entrepreneurs are clearly being held back from pursuing their dreams. > ... > What explains the paradox? In Europe working for yourself doesn't affect your health-care coverage...In America, the ambitious many are held back.

[1] https://archive.org/details/trapsellingoutto00broo/page/108/...

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by ska on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:43PM (#25945518)
> Would it though? From what I understand EU has way better social safety nets, yet much smaller entrepreneurship rates compared to USA.

This is definitely a multiple factor problem, and health care is just one of them. A couple obvious ones - social acceptance/rejection of this as a path, and government/financial friction. If you have only been exposed to the US, it's pretty shocking how hard it is to get a company up and running in many countries. One of the biggies is fairly direct access to capital with the right risk appetite, which itself is complex.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by tormeh on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:24PM (#25949461)
This. Not sure about the US, but starting a company seems pretty damn daunting from where I'm standing
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by ska on Thursday January 28, 2021 @05:47PM (#25950616)
This is all jurisdictional of course, but in parts of North America (I'm including Canadian provinces as well as US states) you can incorporate in less than 30 min online for a few hundred dollars. There are a few other details you'll have to sort out before your first tax filing, but that's about it.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by La1n on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:35PM (#25946609)
>Counter-intuitively, limitations drive innovations. When your resources are limited, you are forced to innovate.

If this was true you'd see people from poor families being more entrepreneurial than those from rich.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by complexmango on Thursday January 28, 2021 @08:12PM (#25952222)
What you actually see in America is that most millionaires come from humble beginnings. That doesn’t mean most people from humble beginnings become millionaires. A->B does not equal B->A. Basic logic.

Go talk to the owners of the five nearest local small businesses, ask them how they started, and see how it goes.

Speaking from experience, btw.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Banana699 on Friday January 29, 2021 @03:01PM (#25961650)
That doesn't mean anything though: vastly more millionaires are from usa than from Dubai, it doesn't say anything about any place, you can replace "millionaires" with any category and likely end up with a true statment, USA just has way more people. Those with humble beginnings are most of us, off course* there are going to be more humble-born <$anything> than privileged-born <$anything>, that's just how populations work.

*: in fact, merely being "humble" is still relatively privileged, a vast sea of humans exists where internet and food and clean water are fleeting dreams

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by umvi on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:46PM (#25946826)
Well, as another commented pointed out, there is a difference between innovating and starting companies. So I would argue that you do see more innovation from poor families than rich families. After all, rich families have no need to innovate, they just throw money at problems until they go away. Poor people are financially constrained and have to think outside the box to solve their problems. But you also see more companies started by rich people. Not necessarily innovative companies, mind you, just companies.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by tsimionescu on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:38PM (#25947790)
> So I would argue that you do see more innovation from poor families than rich families. After all, rich families have no need to innovate, they just throw money at problems until they go away.

This is not something to argue about, this is something that that we should measure.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by umvi on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:51PM (#25948008)
And how do you measure innovation in poor families? Does jerry-rigging your car to work using duct tape and aluminum cans count?
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by tsimionescu on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:46PM (#25948937)
In the discussion here, I am assuming innovation refers specifically to innovative products and business ideas, not stuff that remains confined to your close family.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by umvi on Thursday January 28, 2021 @05:44PM (#25950591)
Well yeah, you probably aren't going to get a lot of business innovation from the poor, but because they are resource constrained, you'll see innovation in other forms - such as how they adapt to broken cars, appliances, shortage of food, clothing, etc. The rich have no need to come up with novel ways to mend shoes - they just buy a new pair.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by tsimionescu on Friday January 29, 2021 @01:27PM (#25960567)
Well, this whole thread started from your claim here:

> From what I understand EU has way better social safety nets, yet much smaller entrepreneurship rates compared to USA.

> Counter-intuitively, limitations drive innovations.

It seemed like you were claiming that people with fewer resources may counter-intuitively do more innovative businesses, so providing people with UBI or similar resources could reduce innovation in entrepreneurship.

The inventiveness you need to thrive as a poor person is very different from that, and I don't think losing that kind of inventiveness would be a real loss in our world.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by mixmastamyk on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:00PM (#25947126)
In my travels in Brazil I saw some incredible hustling going on in poor areas.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by zests on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:53PM (#25945706)
I'd guess that basic income would encourage entrepreneurship in individuals with a high degree of self-actualization but not individuals with a low degree of self-actualization.

Whether or not basic income itself would increase the degree of self-actualization people have is not an easy question. It is in fact a complicated question deeply integrated with culture. I'd guess peoples opinion on this question mostly reflects their political ideology and/or support for basic income.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by medium_burrito on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:41PM (#25945453)
China Lake's development of the Sidewinder missile is a similar story - minimal resources, compared to the vast amounts wasted on radar guided missiles that more or less didn't work until much later.

However, I think it's orthogonal. Limitations are good, but having a basic fallback is also good.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by kenjackson on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:59PM (#25945862)
There are cultural differences in the EU and the US. I don't think you can control for social safety nets, but not the rest of culture. That said, the existence of social safety nets could well be related to the other differences in culture.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by mrcartmenez on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:05PM (#25948235)
Sweden, for example, has much better safety nets and better income equality than the US, and is rated as being much easier than the US to start a business.

Essentially, Swedes have far greater economic freedom due to greater economic equality. Despite not having UBI.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by spamizbad on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:52PM (#25945684)
> Would it though? From what I understand EU has way better social safety nets, yet much smaller entrepreneurship rates compared to USA.

Germany is pretty close to the United States, despite the United States being a wealthier nation by comparison.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by mixmastamyk on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:06PM (#25947226)
Basic income in my understanding is far from "infinite resources," and a lot closer to ensuring folks have at least McDonalds levels of nutrition available.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by heavyset_go on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:34PM (#25946586)
Rates of entrepreneurship are higher in Scandinavian countries than they are in the US.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Gibbon1 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @03:46PM (#25948939)
I've heard that as well. A reminder that most entrepreneurs aren't founding web tech companies.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by adsche on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:49PM (#25945636)
Regarding the entrepreneurship rates, are gig economy workers considered entrepreneurs?

Also, where did you find these numbers indicating such a big difference?

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by walshemj on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:50PM (#25947971)
Exploited working class people who have no other choices I think you mean
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by anchpop on Thursday January 28, 2021 @06:11PM (#25950874)
Uber loses money on every ride because it subsidizes ride fare - not sure it makes sense to call them exploited even in a marxist sense
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by walshemj on Friday January 29, 2021 @02:14PM (#25961115)
Well fake "self employed" status might count
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by 908B64B197 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @04:38PM (#25949660)
> Would it though? From what I understand EU has way better social safety nets, yet much smaller entrepreneurship rates compared to USA.

Try firing an employee in France. It's a two year process minimum and in the end a judge might rule you can't do it.

Also the regulatory landscape in the EU imposes such a high burden on entrepreneurs. Coupled with investors being way more conservatives.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by cgh on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:05PM (#25945997)
But the study says exactly the opposite, that ample resources are key to innovation. Basic income would replace parental income as a backstop.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by BluePen8 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:15PM (#25946200)
With the caveat that as long as it doesn't require physical space.

With the cost of space in any major city, anything that requires a workshop, working space, or significant storage space is out of the window nowadays for anyone in a major city.

When I was a teenager my side hustle was buying, fixing, and selling used cars. My dad's was the same with small fishing boats.

The story of these billion dollar companies being started in their parent's garage sounds inspirational and all, but I'd imagine less so for the kids whose parents can't afford home with a garage.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Valgrim on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:28PM (#25946462)
Exactly, starting out in a garage sounds like starting out from nothing, but in reality it means that your parents have a house with a garage that they lend out to you for free, where you can do whatever you want (so forget condos undergound garages), and that house is probably not very far from a large city so you have access to clients, employees and resources.

You don't need your parents to be millionaires to get that, but in today's terms this is definitely upper middle class.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by mixmastamyk on Thursday January 28, 2021 @02:04PM (#25947185)
Yes, many of the success stories of the 90s started out like you mentioned, the second paragraph was often, "then I borrowed 20k from Uncle Bob to buy a used Sparc station.."
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by war1025 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:55AM (#25944784)
> Healthcare and Basic Income would do a lot to encourage entrepreneurship.

I have a dream that Healthcare will someday be decoupled from employment. So much waste is tolerated simply due to the fact that the majority of the expense is borne by your employer before the number they put on your paycheck.

I can live on a part time salary without issue, but health insurance, which is already $200/wk for my family with my employer chipping in, would jump to more like $600/wk, which is just completely untenable. There is no sane reason why health insurance should be my single largest expense each month.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Someone1234 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:34PM (#25945350)
They could even do this without too many major changes. Just three in fact:

- Increase HSA Contribution Limit

- Allow both Traditional & High Deductible insurance premiums to be paid with the HSA

- Ban employers from directly providing/choosing insurance (ex. US Military)

Essentially everyone goes out onto the open market and buys their insurance using pre-tax HSA contributions (similar to tax benefits to employers now). Employers can continue to "help" be providing dollars to HSA/HSA match, rather than picking your insurance for you.

There are more radical and arguably better solutions, but if you want to see a large improvement with minimal changes/the least controversy this is it. Most insurance companies could likely just convert existing employer provided policies into employee direct ones paid via HSA.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by luigibosco on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:44PM (#25945532)
You're assuming people have the money to contribute to an HSA and an employer when many do not.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Someone1234 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:01PM (#25945914)
I am talking about a solution to separating employers from your choice of insurance policy, you're talking about an entirely different issue.

I said there are other, arguably better, solutions (e.g. universal coverage) whereas this is an attempt to solve a near-term issue of employer provided health insurance.

If you can get the political support to pass universal reform to health coverage in the US, then absolutely do that instead. In the current political climate this compromise is still a vast improvement.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by aksss on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:20PM (#25946317)
In 2019 the Trump administration made a change allowing HRA plans to pay for insurance premiums. That went into effect on Jan 2020. That effectively allows a small business to take part/most/all of the employee’s insurance burden from the individual market (healthcare.gov) onto their expense sheet rather than the employee paying for it with post-tax dollars. The problem of course is that in a number of states the individual market plans are still pegged to the price of unobtanium, but it’s a good step forward. The particular vehicle is called an ICHRA.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by snakeboy on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:48PM (#25945615)
Is there any momentum behind these ideas? I don't have any idea what the state of US healthcare reform is.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Someone1234 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:02PM (#25945942)
Nope.

The current "war" is between complete re-invention and essentially the status quo. This is neither of those, therefore it upsets both sides, and gets squished by "perfect is the enemy of good."

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by aksss on Thursday January 28, 2021 @01:36PM (#25946645)
Yes, at least two big changes were attempted in last administration with 50% success rate. First, loosening restrictions on association health plans which would have allowed diverse groups of small businesses in an area to band together to negotiate lower rates as if a larger organization. This was struck down by the federal court.

The second, and successful, move was to allow health reimbursement accounts (HRA) to pay for insurance premiums on the individual market. These plans, an ICHRA, would allow a small business to essentially give pre-tax dollars to the employee for buying health insurance as long as the reimbursements were applied consistently across the employee base.

The second was great, but the first would have been even better since it would have lowered group rates. Individual insurance premiums and deductibles (when not subsidized by gov) are often so expensive they are hard to justify. Still ICHRA’s are at least another tool for employers and employees to share the burden.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by danilocesar on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:21PM (#25945156)
You know that your dream is actually the standard in every developed nation except the US right?
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by war1025 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:26PM (#25945226)
That's what makes it seem achievable.
Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by nemo136 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:12PM (#25945031)
That is more or less what we have in France, it comes with other issues... like really high taxes.

But we have many start-ups, which usually migrate to the US as soon as they grow big.

Re:Parents' income, not smarts, key to entrepreneurship by Mediterraneo10 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @12:29PM (#25945284)
Healthcare is decoupled from employment in a number of countries, but barriers to entrepreneurship remain high, sometimes even higher than in the United States.