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Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by kodah on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:21AM (#25859047)
3Mbps symmetrical is the bare minimum for an HD Zoom call. That's good enough for one working person. People in cities have gotten the privilege and luxury of routinely getting network upgrades while rural communities are basically left in the dust. I've been stuck out in the country because I got COVID out here and Zoom calls degrade frustratingly fast.

One reason is because the only method of delivery that they have is point to point connections, which have a good amount of variability in them despite advancements. When I used to live out here I lived in a different area served by CenturyLink. These lines were incredibly old and in disrepair. So, speed isn't the only problem but slow and unstable is not okay in a day when most things require a consistent connection.

So, is it fast enough? I don't think so. I think a policy which stops upgrading cities until a baseline is met in the rest of the country is also appropriate.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by thebean11 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:35AM (#25859197)
> I think a policy which stops upgrading cities until a baseline is met in the rest of the country is also appropriate.

What does one thing have to do with the other? Cities aren't in any way preventing improvements elsewhere.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by onion2k on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:42AM (#25859279)
Cities aren't in any way preventing improvements elsewhere.

Yes they are. No one has unlimited capital for investment, so infrastructure companies will invest where they get the maximum returns. If they're left to their own devices cities would get increasing fast internet, and everywhere else would be left stagnant. That drives more people to live in cities, which in turn makes rural economies fail. Then the people in cities start running out of food.

Slight reductio ad absurdum argument on my part there, but it's just to illustrate the point. For a country to operate having significantly worse infrastructure in one place damages the entire economy. Infrastructure investment has to be managed carefully.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by boringg on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:49AM (#25859354)
I hear your point but I disagree with the binary nature of it. I do think the challenge of rural internet lies in the incredible amount of infrastructure costs with limited recovery. This is the same challenge the electricity markets have (or any public infrastructure). The other challenge in the US that most european countries don't have (for anyone from Europe) is that the US has incredibly large land mass with sparse populations and challenging weather conditions (tornadoes, hurricanes, flooding, etc.).

This is where something like starlink et. competitors can provide a much better cost per outcome benefit. The challenge is how to bring the cost down for the benefit of rural areas on lower incomes. As it stands right now its pretty expensive for lower-mid income demographic to swallow price wise.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by saltyshake on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:38PM (#25865511)
Wouldn't the Skylink latency be too high for video chat?
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by thebean11 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:26AM (#25859815)
Internet providers bring in insane amounts of cash and deploy as little of it as possible. If you ban infrastructure improvements in one place I doubt they deploy that money elsewhere. If the other project were profitable they would have done both to begin with.
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by inetknght on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:38AM (#25859232)
> Cities aren't in any way preventing improvements elsewhere.

Opportunity cost. Why spend your installation technician's time in an unprofitable rural region when you can better-spend their time in a profitable city?

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by thebean11 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:22AM (#25859755)
Opportunity cost is only an argument when doing one thing prevents you from doing the other. What's the limited resource here that would prevent a cable company from hiring more technicians and laying more cable?

Put another way, how does banning improvements in New York suddenly make improvements in Montana more profitable?

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by inetknght on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:26PM (#25862988)
Sure but what are you going to do with those technicians after they've installed the hardware in a sparse region? It takes a lot of man-hours to do the install, especially for long distances that are rural homes, but not so many man-hours to maintain
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by hylaride on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:42AM (#25859281)
Well, these rural areas keep electing "free market" republicans, so...
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by kodah on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:52AM (#25859376)
Personally, your argument seems dubious but I'll answer you in earnest.

If your argument were true this map would look much different: https://www.fcc.gov/health/maps

Local politicians all work just about the same way when it comes to approving an internet provider. Attracting them generally has to do with business incentives, which means if the State and/or Federal government do nothing then you'll get what you have today.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by blaser-waffle on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:19AM (#25860503)
Plus you have the ability to serve more people, at a lower cost.

I can get 100 urban users up for 1/4 of the price to get 20 users in a rural sub-division. This isn't just capitalism, it's basic utilitarianism.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by ksec on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:51AM (#25859370)
If a Nation mandate electricity, water pipes and telephone lines ( Not sure if telephone is still the case ) to new housing / flat. Or is that not a case in US?

Why isn't High Speed Internet Access the same? Where High Speed Internet is defined as user able to purchase 1Gbps Internet should they choose to. They could get a 100Mbps if they want it cheaper, but 1Gbps must be an option. This ruled out any DSL tech and most old Cable DOCSIS standards.

And if Phone jack, Which I assume they are all RJ11 used around the world, why cant we do the same for SFP+?

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by kodah on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:01AM (#25859482)
We have tired old arguments in the US about mandate versus incentive. They're two schools of thought and I'm not really sure which is better, when given maximal effort.

Consider this map: https://www.fcc.gov/health/maps

You can mandate that the internet become a utility, much how water can be a private utility, and tell a company that for every segment they get in a popular area, where they'll make money, they must establish presence in an area where they'll lose money in the name of service. There's also price approval activity and probably some subsidizing that happens there. This certainly might work.

The other is for incentives to be drawn and invested in routinely that draw providers to less populated areas. These would have to be monetary, and you might be able to reason their subsidies look much like agricultural subsidies.

Another argument is wireline providers are just not sufficient for scale in the more rural areas. 5G won't work because coverage is abysmal. Starlink and other engineering solutions may be appropriate.

I don't really care how it's done, but being out here has made me realize exactly how awful this problem is.

Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by LinuxBender on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:14AM (#25859632)
Not for individuals. No idea what rules there are for developers, but an individual can buy land anywhere and is not required to have any of those things when they build their home. The only things almost universally regulated is sewage. Some states allow composting toilets, but most require a septic tank inspected by the county. Some counties in some states have rules about types of septic systems.
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by TYPE_FASTER on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:53PM (#25861790)
Point to point can also be useful when getting a building connected is expensive. A former employer leased a space in a city, and the space wasn't connected. One of the big providers wanted $10k to connect the building. A local small ISP connected the building using point to point for a fraction of the cost. I think we'll see more point to point adoption until it threatens the market share of entrenched providers.
Re:3Mbps uploads still fast enough for US homes, Ajit Pai sa... by WalterSear on Thursday January 21, 2021 @02:53PM (#25863338)
> I think a policy which stops upgrading cities until a baseline is met in the rest of the country is also appropriate.

The best I can get in San Francisco is 5Mbps symmetric. Would that be good enough for you? :)