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Re:What Is Social Cooling? by zmmmmm on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @11:47PM (#25758281)
I have noticed I avoid watching "inappropriate" things on netflix because I am afraid of the suggestions they will generate, which inevitably everyone will see when I bring it up on the TV. The few times I did, I thumbs-downed it to avoid that.

I wonder how much unconventional content is being harmed by this. It's really annoying.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by bitwize on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @12:30AM (#25758579)
Weird Al:

"But I only watched Will and Grace one time, one day!

Wish I hadn't, 'cause TiVo now thinks I'm gay!"

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by nickt on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:13AM (#25758814)
WEIRD AL or WEIRD AI

either way works...

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by watwut on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:30AM (#25759257)
I did pirated some shows I had legal access to for exactly that reason.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by jtsiskin on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:10AM (#25758797)
Same with YouTube. I’m kind of curious to watch a QAnon conspiracy video but don’t want the suggestions. I guess that’s what incognito mode is for, but I don’t trust them to not match based on IP address...
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by agiroth on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:32AM (#25758915)
Incognito won't help unfortunately. I've tried this on a few occasions and it still pollutes my suggestions. I've noticed that using Brave seems to blunt it -- I have to watch alot more to notice the pollution.

Can't say more than that, I stopped experimenting and basically stopped using Youtube except for the same music I listen to over and over now. Nothing new.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by kilroy123 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @08:05AM (#25761461)
Wait are you sure opening in an incognito window does work? How would it not?
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by hkon on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:41AM (#25761272)
What kind of person uses Brave? What are you hiding?

/s (for now)

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by dexen on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:49AM (#25759368)
Tor Browser is a good option to avoid generating "inappropriate" suggestions - decouples tracking from both your login cookies (permanent incognito mode) and also from your IP address.

Even better, restarting the browser clears the cookies & other stored data, making tracking across session highly unlikely.

YouTube videos take fractionally longer to load, but it's manageable.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by godshatter on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:21AM (#25764099)
I stay logged out of YT, and clear my cookies every so often when I start getting too many of the same kinds of recommendations. They do match based on IP, since that's all they really have from me. When I delete cookies, though, things start over, basically. Then I get recommendations based on what I've searched for in YT and what I've watched since I last deleted them. It's nice, really. For a little while, YT doesn't know enough about me not to show me both sides of an issue I'm searching for. It's really touchy, though. Two or three videos covering one particular side of an issue in a row and the other recommendations disappear.

Of course, I can't subscribe, like, ring the damn bell, or whatever it is they want me to do in every video. I do use patreon for those content creators I really like.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by Nextgrid on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:47AM (#25760049)
Invidious (https://github.com/iv-org/invidious) is how I've been using YouTube for the past few months. It takes care of this problem in addition to providing a faster, nicer UI without dark patterns.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by godmode2019 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:12AM (#25759486)
YouTube algo is pretty quick to respond. You just click 'Don't show me videos like this' a few times and they won't show you videos like this.

Make sure you don't comment, that shows strong engagement which they like.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by drdeca on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:23AM (#25759892)
I have been marking "not interested" in every "vtuber" related video it has recommended to me, and I don't remember clicking on a single one, but it still hasn't stopped recommending them to me.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by theshrike79 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:32AM (#25759946)
Your graph of interests merges with "people who watch vtubers" too strongly, so the recommendation engine keeps pushing that stuff to you.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by aww_dang on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:44AM (#25760387)
I'm assuming that a downvote with a negative sentiment comment is the most severe signal you can send.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:54AM (#25760091)
lol, I do the same with my browser, going to anonymous browser if I'm looking up shit on youtube or google I don't want to show up in my suggestions or history.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by baxtr on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:19AM (#25759185)
How is this different from having “inappropriate” books in your book shelf?
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by ceilingcorner on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:25AM (#25759221)
Because your bookshelf doesn’t automatically rearrange itself, then send the data to a corporation optimized for making you read as many books as possible?
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by griffoa on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:50AM (#25759707)
Yet...
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by musingsole on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:54AM (#25763578)
This year from IKEA, introducing the subscription powered AutoShelf! Tired of curating your own collection? This bookshelf keeps track of what and how long you read using ultrasonic pulses to determine spine-crackage. Once a month, a crate of new books will arrive. Simply attach the crate to the AutoShelf to restock your collection. Once its done, leave the crate (now filled with your old, dusty books) on the curb for our gig-service to pick up!
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by drdeadringer on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:45AM (#25761309)
... I need you to finish because I can't read your mind.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:17AM (#25762194)
That wasn't a "yet" like "and yet, [something]", but a "yet" like "[something isn't happening]... yet".
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by drdeadringer on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:53AM (#25763556)
Ah.

Thank you.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:39PM (#25766191)
Don't give Amazon ideas.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by vixen99 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:05AM (#25759456)
I'm curious to know what apart from pornography (volumes of which have been part of comprehensive book collections for eons as in https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/oxford-university-obsc...) is included in the term 'inappropriate'?
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by concordDance on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:43AM (#25760031)
Well if your family are all white Republicans, having White Fragility on your bookshelf is a sure-fire way to start an argument (due to the title!).
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:30AM (#25761181)
Or not. If your family is reasonable people they'll probably just keep their mouths shut an ignore it even if they don't agree with it.

People are pretty good at ignoring quackery in their own family. I think most people have a few relatives who are very much outside whatever the family norms are that are still treated with respect.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by xpe on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:22AM (#25762244)
Who benefits and who is hurt when reasonable people don't find ways to speak their minds and advocate for their values?

This question is particularly apropos in modern times -- take the last week for example.

To ask the question in a different way: There may be a tradeoff between maintaining the status quo versus speaking about our values.

To me, it is really important to strive to speak and act according to our values _and_ to reflect on who (and what ideas) benefit from the status quo. It is entirely reasonable to be strategic about what you say, but I don't pretend to think the status quo is correct just because it exists.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by watwut on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:44AM (#25761301)
For example, if you like to watch romance and don't want to be judged for it.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by theshrike79 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:33AM (#25759956)
If the person in question only owns a dozen books, all are pro-Nazi stuff and they're prominently displayed for example?

We're not talking about people who have a thousand books from all genres and walks of life having Mein Kampf in there.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by Veen on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:31AM (#25760314)
Last year's media scrutiny of politicians' bookshelves undermines your point a little.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/michael-gove-an...

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by inglor_cz on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:43AM (#25760383)
Interesting that they consider Ayn Rand alarming enough to name her right next to David Irving, a notorious Holocaust denier, or, more precisely, diminisher.

Edit: I, too, have one book by David Irving in my bookcase - among 900 others. I read it, I found his way of twisting of the sources disturbing, but I am not going to burn it in the name of Love and Peace. But unfortunately I can see this being used against me in a court of Twitter.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by theshrike79 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @06:29AM (#25760763)
The Holy and Unerring Court of Twitter is the reason I've got a cron job deleting my old tweets automatically.

I've seen people in more prominent positions than me being badly burned by a 10 year old tweet. I see no point in saving stuff I've said 6 months or a year ago. If it's something worthwhile, I'll make a blog post out of it and store the markdown file in git.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by alexilliamson on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:15AM (#25762943)
Then why tweet at all in the first place?
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by watwut on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:30AM (#25759253)
You just put them on the back or inside cupboard so that people dont see.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by conception on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @12:15AM (#25758483)
You can remove items from your Netflix watched history on their website. :)
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by ohazi on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:03AM (#25758751)
Now that storage is infinite and cheap, it's become trendy for engineers to never actually remove anything, but to just set a "deleted" flag in a database somewhere. This makes a lot of tricky things easier, but there are pitfalls.

Years later, in the fifteenth re-implementation of some part of some service, somebody is going to forget to read that bit. Or an errant database migration isn't going to transfer it properly. Or the database will be leaked, and all of the "deleted" content will still be there (e.g. the Parler dump). Or a race condition will cause the check to occasionally be ignored every other Sunday.

Discovering that this is happening can be next to impossible. An application might read the deleted bit correctly when generating the ordered list of stuff you've looked at, but might not read it correctly (or might deliberately ignore it) when generating your advertising profile or when making content recommendations. I swear I've seen this on Amazon, though of course, I'll never be able to prove it.

Chilling effects / social cooling includes stuff like this. "I'm not even going to click on that, because I don't trust the platform to clear my history properly."

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by theshrike79 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:37AM (#25759987)
> Now that storage is infinite and cheap, it's become trendy for engineers to never actually remove anything, but to just set a "deleted" flag in a database somewhere. This makes a lot of tricky things easier, but there are pitfalls.

Also deleting stuff for real for real immediately is really hard.

You need to delete it from the database, the one that's replicating to, caches, online backups AND offline backups. And that's after you've confirmed and reconfirmed from the user that they actually want to delete the data, not just store it in the recycle bin or something idiotic like that.

The easiest way is just to flag as deleted and prune on some kind of schedule. Backups will be overwritten at some point and the data will go away eventually.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:21AM (#25762225)
Or, though a more technically complex, encrypt every "deletable" unit of data with its own key, have a different backup policy for encrypted data and for keys to it - one which, upon user request, would allow you to quickly purge every trace of relevant keys.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by jandrewrogers on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @12:01PM (#25764785)
This doesn't work well in practice at any kind of scale -- these types of databases have existed for many years. The key management overhead is considerable, causing integer factor loss of performance for database-y systems. Additionally, it very significantly increases the storage footprint since most techniques for minimizing storage utilization no longer work given this requirement.

It isn't just "technically complex", the limiting factor is your system may be 10x slower and use 10x more storage. The economics of operating these systems is so poor that they are only used in extremely niche environments where the requirements justify the extreme cost and performance limitations.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by debaserab2 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:07AM (#25759112)
Soft deletes have been popular since the internet became accessible to the average person. When I was younger I was a huge advocate for soft deleting pretty much everything. It felt like the obvious, easy choice - why not retain the data incase you need to use it for something else down the road? It took years to understand the ramifications of storing that data in a secure way really means, and that often times the reason it gets used later isn't something you intended it to be used for when you designed the data structure.

I don't think that way anymore and I truly believe hard deletes should be the default unless you have a very compelling reason to soft delete (and you should usually only soft delete with some guarantee of future deletion via a publicly accessible data retention/erasure policy)

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by 05 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:56AM (#25759741)
It's not rocket science - encrypt with a one time symmetric key, encrypt the key with a public key, store blob and key marked as deleted. Store the corresponding private asymmetric key on a hardware token to be used when you decide you need the deleted data. That way no db hack exposes any usable data.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by debaserab2 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @04:14AM (#25759837)
DB hacks aren't even close to being the only (or worst) threat. Encryption means nothing in a company or bankruptcy buyout where the purchaser may have a completely different set of ethics than yours.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by WJW on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @06:44AM (#25760867)
That is all good and well against simple actors, but does not defend against the company being bought out and the new owner(s) deciding to decrypt and sell the entire database to some shady data broker. Or against the FBI/your local equivalent coming over for a friendly visit and confiscating both the hardware token and the database.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by dexen on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:55AM (#25759396)
>This makes a lot of tricky things easier, but there are pitfalls.

Some people are calling excessive data "toxic asset", due to the future risks of it causing unexpected breaches of privacy, damage to reputation, or other losses.

We'll certainly develop standard technical means of handling that in due time, quite possibly ones based on cryptography. A common scenario at present: instead of trawling all backups & distributed stores to laboriously expunge every bit of deleted data, you could delete the relevant encryption keys - a small piece of data, a known quantity - rendering the encrypted data inert. This is particularly suited for systems that use WORM approach to backing up & distributing data.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by deckard1 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @02:55AM (#25759398)
> just set a "deleted" flag in a database somewhere

this has been a thing since the 1980s, at least. It's not new, and it's often important for auditing purposes and because mistakes happen.

What's new is the ease with which databases can be accessed and hacked over a global public network.

> Or an errant database migration isn't going to transfer it properly. Or the database will be leaked, and all of the "deleted" content will still be there

Backups are a thing, you know. When you issue a delete command to your database it's not reaching back to time immemorial through the archives and ripping out those records. If we're playing what-ifs, then backup databases can just as easily be leaked.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by parliament32 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:27PM (#25768823)
This is exactly what happened with the AshleyMadison hack. In fact, users explicitly paid for a "delete my account permanently" action.. yet it was just that, a "deleted" flag added to the DB which eventually got leaked.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by genghizkhan on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @01:33AM (#25758924)
Just look at Parler. That's the same thing which happened there.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by globular-toast on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:18AM (#25759513)
It's not trendy, it's how I've been doing databases my whole life. You don't let users actually delete stuff from your database. That's crazy.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by Lio on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:08AM (#25760185)
How would you handle a user ceasing their account and asking you to remove data you no longer need to provide them with service?

Under GDPR you'd be required to really delete that. Obviously GDPR laws don't hold everywhere but are you saying you'd just hold the user's data forever or that you'd have a later clean up process or something?

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by globular-toast on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @07:49AM (#25761332)
You wouldn't. GDPR didn't exist. That was my point. We've been doing this for ages and only recently had to worry about actually deleting stuff.

This is why I've never advocated "deleting" Facebook accounts etc. If you "delete" it you're just giving them another piece of information about you. Namely that you want your account to be deleted.

The GDPR has not yet been shown to have any teeth, so I assume nothing has really changed in this respect.

And, yes, holding users' data forever is normal. Storage cost has only decreased relative to the size of these databases. I've worked in places with customer data going back decades.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by lazyasciiart on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @12:45AM (#25758661)
Create a profile to share and a profile for what you want to watch. This helps get better targeted recommendations in general, because even aside from stuff you don't want to tell people you watch, IME there's stuff you like that don't suit the people you watch with.
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @03:12AM (#25759490)
> Create a profile to share and a profile for what you want to watch. This helps get better targeted recommendations

Or you know we could just have a proper advanced search within Netflix rather than me going through hoops with flixable etc or trying to play 4d chess to second guess how Netflix ML might give me the content I actually want to watch.

Perhaps I am a minority contrarian (In fairness I was pretty much coerced to get Netflix by my family) but it just feels like there is so much accidental complexity in this Netflix paradigm of 'we non-negotiably must cleverly guess what you want to watch'.

Re:What Is Social Cooling? by stdbrouw on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:40AM (#25760369)
You're free to like or dislike Netflix's recommendation algorithms, of course, but does creating two profiles really feel like playing 4d chess to you... or do you simply refuse to countenance a solution out of annoyance and spite? :-)
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by DoingIsLearning on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @06:03AM (#25760555)
Arguably you could make the same argument to Netflix Product Managers with regards to an advanced search feature with some added basic filters. :-)
Re:What Is Social Cooling? by lazyasciiart on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @05:22PM (#25768773)
You do you, but I like having a list of stuff I want to watch separated from a list of stuff to watch with the family. I’m not planning to memorize those lists and search every time, that would be insane.