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Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by maxklein on Sunday May 22, 2011 @01:31PM (#2573712)
I live in Berlin. It's a pretty good place to work on a startup - great transportation, excellent & cheap infrastructure and cheap apartments/office space. Also, a lot of universities with cheap students to work.

Another advantage is that a lot of european young people go to berlin, for example from france, U.K, holland, poland and so on. It's a city that draws the young upwardly mobile crowd, rather than the working class. So there is the sense of a diversity of ideas, and many different people doing different things. It's a city that does not feel very "german", it feels very european.

Berlin is not so great for people looking to work in the tech industry because there is no concentration of tech companies. But for self-starters, it's quite conducive.

I doubt that Berlin will really become the mecca for technology though, because I do not think it's easy to learn the german language, and in the end, Berlin is in Germany, and Germany is not very multi-cultural. London feels much free-er, English laws are much more conducive to small companies, and people already speak english.

Berlin imposes berlin on you, you have to kind of be the berlin type to like berlin, but I get the feeling, you can just be yourself in London.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by bobo888 on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:20PM (#2573991)
The city might be great, but how about the German bureaucracy? I kid you not, but a friend of mine didn't need a permit anymore because of some new regulations for EU citizens, so the German authorities asked him to obtain another permit, which states that he doesn't need the first permit anymore.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by Kliment on Monday May 23, 2011 @01:52AM (#2575090)
I have that same no-permit permit. It was a rather amusing runaround to obtain, but every place that "needed" it was extremely lenient with timing. I found for every circular dependency, you could satisfy it by getting one element in the circle to accept a promise that the dependency that depends on them will be filled "later". Later can be months. It seems everyone dealing with the bureaucracy is used to it, and workarounds like these for seemingly impossible circular stuff are common.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by jk4930 on Sunday May 22, 2011 @07:59PM (#2574602)
You have this kind of insanity practically in every place with a bureaucrazy. It's not unique for Germany. You shouldn't worry too much, there's always a way around or through.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by ig1 on Sunday May 22, 2011 @07:06PM (#2574521)
I lived in Berlin for three months and it's definitely possible to get by without speaking German, it helps, but English is widely enough spoken that you can survive without it (assuming you're working for an English speaking company)
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by sneak on Monday May 23, 2011 @04:42AM (#2575341)
I have lived in Berlin for over 36 months and German is not required at all, ESPECIALLY in the tech community. Everyone uses English.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by eru on Monday May 23, 2011 @10:49AM (#2576090)
People appreciate if you make the effort, though.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by ig1 on Monday May 23, 2011 @06:50PM (#2577901)
Mostly I found people cringed and replied in English ;-)
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by eru on Monday May 23, 2011 @07:09PM (#2577964)
Yes, but it's still cute.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by Locke1689 on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:16PM (#2573982)
because I do not think it's easy to learn the german language

I'd actually disagree with you there. Given that English is a Germanic language, the little German I know was far easier to learn as a native English speaker than French or Japanese (the two other languages I studied for a short while).

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by maxklein on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:23PM (#2574004)
It's easy to pickup basic german, but it's difficult to speak german properly. Also, there are few variations on german like there are on English or French, so you need to speak it correctly. There is no "African German" or "Canadian German" or "Australian German". So the language is not tolerant of many variations like english or french is.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by lucasjung on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:40PM (#2574161)
You're flat wrong about the variations. German dialects are almost like completely different languages. I grew up in Berlin, and we vacationed in Austria and Switzerland on a few occasions. I spoke fluent German (I attended German public schools) but when the natives were speaking their dialects to each other I didn't have a clue what they were saying. They would switch to "Hochdeutsch" when speaking to non-locals. The Austrian and Swiss dialects are probably the most extreme cases. Other regions have "dialects" that are really closer to accents with a few local phrases thrown in (kind of like New England).
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by maxklein on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:47PM (#2574187)
German dialects are not as grossly different as let's say Nigerian English vs British English. Most people who speak dialectical german can speak normal german, but a british english speaker cannot switch to nigerian english or jamaican english.

German is diverse are as many languages, but English and French are far more diverse.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by darklajid on Sunday May 22, 2011 @06:33PM (#2574437)
I'm torn here. I mostly agree with you (both the Berlin presentation and the language topic). I tend to believe that I speak very high level, accent free German (heck - I'm German. But 'accent free' is key..). I had to do business in Switzerland for roughly two years.

My takeaway:

* Lots of people there (no offense intended if any CH people read this) referred to the language I know as 'written German'

* Lots of people (TV news guys are kind of the only counter examples) have a _heavy_ accent if they speak what they consider de_DE (Time for an anecdote: A good local CH friend of mine told me once that he talked with a DE guy for quite a while, on his best official German level, and was told all of a sudden if he can talk German (probably considered as 'accent-free') as well).

After fighting the 'everybody speaks German in CH/AT' a bit I'd like to point to the fact that there are lots of accents and dialects that just sound like gibberish if you're not used to them. Let's leave AT/CH out of this for a moment: If I visit the northern part of Germany/the shore, if I visit the most southern places, if I go to the southwest (Platt/Bayrisch/Hessisch) and people speak 'normally' I end up understanding 50%-70%. And I didn't even mention some dialects from the east of Germany.

Actually - if people from Berlin talk fast and use the local dialect, I'm lost..

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by guard-of-terra on Monday May 23, 2011 @03:49AM (#2575267)
Why does this happen? You don't have all-german tv channels, movies, music and whatever for everybody to parrot the "standard" dialect from?

I mean, why would people be blissfully unaware of the standard form.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by danvet on Monday May 23, 2011 @04:28AM (#2575323)
It's not that they're blissfully unaware. It's being thaught in school and almost all official writing is done in the so called 'written German'. But it's simply not the language you speak (safe for a reason to the contrary, like not everybody understanding it). Even in written (private) communication it's used quite a lot, like in mails, sms, ...

Oh, and at least for Swiss German: It is kinda a different language (but extremely related to the written German): It's not just an accent with some funny words, but has a slightly different grammar, too. Most glarious is the lack of most of the verb tenses in Swiss German. So pupils have to learn quite some stuff to be really fluent in written German.

And even just within Switzerland there are dialects I don't understand (as in no clue what they're talking about). People speaking these usually switch to a more conformistic pronounciation when talking to people from other areas and don't use some of the more obscure words.

And for the reasons this all exists (at least for Switzerland): It's cultivated and all kinda part of your local/national identity. Politicians who speak a "too good" written German are deemed suspicious, almost all of the local culture (theater, local movies, even most of the Swiss tv produciton ...) is in Swiss German.

[Native Swiss German speaker, here.]

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by darklajid on Monday May 23, 2011 @05:24AM (#2575418)
In DE, ~everything~ on TV is in 'high level' German. Bah, we even dub every movie, special we-show-you-the-real-thing cinemas notwithstanding. Still, you have local dialects that are mostly used on the streets. Often these are part of the local identity, part of belonging to a place and people speaking different (even if that means 'correct') are easily identified as outsiders. I guess it's just a natural thing: I regularly hear people from the USA joke about southern/northern/eastern/western dialects as well - and Europe had a couple of years more to develop those.

Switzerland is a very specific case, I guess. The level of national pride is very high, with a very prominent political party living close to the racism edge (and crossing it every now and then), protecting the country from outside influences (contractors from i.e. Germany are not really welcome there, often seen as stealing jobs).

Add to this national pride a good amount of _local_ awareness: CH is a federal system, each 'state'(Kanton) fighting for as much independence as possible. Heck, they don't even have a real capital city [1] because they don't want one state to surpass the others. Your local region of origin seems to be much more important there.

In addition CH has 4 (erm.. 3.5?) official languages and already some 'borders' that separate parts of the country into ~mostly french/german/italian regions. You drive 5 min and every sign switches from German to French and the whole culture changes (food, lifestyle are the easiest things to spot).

1: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bern

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by FrojoS on Sunday May 22, 2011 @05:28PM (#2574264)
I think this irrelevant in this context. If you are going to do a Startup and especially in a big city like Berlin, everyone you work with will speak proper German.

And of course those people will know some English, too.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by DasIch on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:43PM (#2574171)
There are various variations in Germany alone not to mention Austria and Switzerland and even for native speakers they can be almost impossible to understand.

The proper spelling is the least of your worries if you want to learn German.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by jbjohns on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:55PM (#2574068)
No way. English certainly has germanic roots but it was more recently influenced by french. We have over 17k french words in English where as in german the word might have a german root but it's no longer recognizable in most cases (e.g. enough comes from the root genug. They don't look alike but the enough came from the french not being able to make the ch sound that genug had on the end at the time).
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by woodpanel on Monday May 23, 2011 @01:51AM (#2575087)
It's true, there are a lot of french words in it. But English hasn't picked up the grammar of france. Because it was way harder to learn. You rather switch some words, than the whole logic in your sentence-making. That's why I think that if you're able to speak english, you'll be able to speak german too.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by jbjohns on Tuesday May 24, 2011 @05:39AM (#2579248)
Well I'm american, have learned German and am learning French and I think I would have had a much easier time with French. The actual German grammar isn't that English like really. It's a kind of reverse old English. It has really strict rules about where verbs go and in what cases. Also, any verb past the first one has to be tacked on the end of the sentence, no matter how many there are. So you end up with things like:

He had yesterday at 3pm with his huge knife the postman killed should could.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by officemonkey on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:54PM (#2574067)
German may be easy to "pick up" because of all the cognates, but I've found that the German grammer is both complex and not very "English".

French, on the other hand, has significant vocabulary overlap with English and it's grammar rules are either easier to learn, or easy to fudge when speaking.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by StavrosK on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:59PM (#2574207)
As a speaker of both English and German, and a dabbler in the other Romantic languages, I find German impossible to learn. I've taken years of classes and am still no good at it.

Its grammar is really close to ancient Greek, but that makes learning it no easier. Greek has three genders also, but you can usually tell the gender from the noun's suffix. In German, you have to learn the article with the word. It is one of the hardest languages I've met.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by darklajid on Sunday May 22, 2011 @06:43PM (#2574460)
The Awful German Language - Mark Twain [1]

I love that essay - and he agrees with you on the gender issue:

---

To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female -- tomcats included, of course; a person's mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it -- for in Germany all the women either male heads or sexless ones; a person's nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience haven't any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.

Now, by the above dissection, the reader will see that in Germany a man may think he is a man, but when he comes to look into the matter closely, he is bound to have his doubts; he finds that in sober truth he is a most ridiculous mixture; and if he ends by trying to comfort himself with the thought that he can at least depend on a third of this mess as being manly and masculine, the humiliating second thought will quickly remind him that in this respect he is no better off than any woman or cow in the land.

---

1: http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html (First hit I found on Google. You might find "better" versions)

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by StavrosK on Sunday May 22, 2011 @06:56PM (#2574497)
Ah, I've read this before, it's delightful, but I go one further. I don't actually mind the detached genders (Greek has them, the door is a she, the table is an it, the bench is a he), as long as you can guess it from the word itself somehow (in Greek, gender is determined by the word's suffix, the girl is still neuter but you can tell even if you've never seen the word before).

In German, you basically have to learn an extra bit of information for every word.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by darklajid on Sunday May 22, 2011 @07:05PM (#2574519)
Ah, right. Yes, it's just arbitrary and completely disconnected from the words as far as I can tell.

In fact, we tend to argue about the gender of things here regularly. One well-known (and mocked) example is a very popular local hazelnut cream. People actually discuss if the brand name should be considered female or of no gender at all (not sure if anyone wants to claim that it should be male).

Since there's no real logic behind all these rules it's fair game to argue about it..

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by eru on Monday May 23, 2011 @10:55AM (#2576106)
Are you talking about Nutella? Shockingly, that's actual Italian, and not local to Germany.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by kahawe on Monday May 23, 2011 @09:24AM (#2575818)
It varies by region and dialect, also - very popular example is the soda pop "Cola".

In Austria Cola is neuter "it", in Germany it is female, which for me as a native speaker from Austria always "feels" like they are referring to the can (which is female in Germany and Austria).

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by officemonkey on Sunday May 22, 2011 @07:01PM (#2574504)
It's more than a bit:

0 = der

1 = die

10 = das

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by StavrosK on Monday May 23, 2011 @04:02AM (#2575284)
"A bit" = "some". I know that 3 > 2.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by officemonkey on Monday May 23, 2011 @07:15AM (#2575587)
I'm sorry, I thought you were speaking technically. "An extra bit of information" could easily be mistaken for a computer term.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by StavrosK on Monday May 23, 2011 @07:20AM (#2575597)
I guess it is, but I thought people would realise that I don't think that a bit has three states :P
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by officemonkey on Tuesday May 24, 2011 @06:50AM (#2579364)
I knew you knew German had three genders, I just thought other people didn't know.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by StavrosK on Tuesday May 24, 2011 @07:01AM (#2579390)
Oh, true. Good catch, thanks!
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by mgkimsal on Sunday May 22, 2011 @10:31PM (#2574816)
re: genders - I learned the hard way that "pollo" and "polla" have completely different meanings in Spain when I ordered a chicken sandwich.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by kahawe on Monday May 23, 2011 @09:22AM (#2575815)
You are heavily under-estimating just how much more grammar there is in German compared to English and once you know how to correctly apply that grammar, there are quite a few exceptions to those rules which would all mean different things. And also we have those three "genders" and "the little girl" is NOT considered female, for example.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by eru on Monday May 23, 2011 @10:53AM (#2576102)
But our potatoes are female!
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by fedd on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:15PM (#2574106)
ah, and the legal issues is interesting to discuss. as far as i am wrong, continental legal system neglects the shareholder agreements -> you'll need to give up more that 25% to VCs so they would not be afraid you dilute their share somehow. (until the ecosystem becomes more mature and even closed)

--ps i am an amateur in legal field

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by fedd on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:04PM (#2574085)
German isn't that spread in the world as English or French, so you can count on that if you speak English, you will be understood as Germans all speak English (as the opposite to France)
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by DasIch on Sunday May 22, 2011 @04:35PM (#2574155)
Students will all be able to talk to you but people who went to school in East Germany before the '90s will most likely not have learned English. Due to the fact that most adults never used English outside of school and have never used it afterwards they, too, will be unable to speak English.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by Kliment on Monday May 23, 2011 @01:54AM (#2575092)
This is true outside of East Germany as well. Very few people in Germany speak English well enough to communicate.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by fedd on Monday May 23, 2011 @05:59AM (#2575465)
sad to learn that (though i personally would be able to speak Russian to those seniors)
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by jerguismi on Sunday May 22, 2011 @02:30PM (#2573865)
Great to hear, I'm moving to Berlin in Autumn.

Does anyone know where to find startup/programming/tech events in the berlin area? Which mailing lists to follow etc?

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by biafra on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:10PM (#2573966)
The c-base (http://c-base.org) has several programming related events:

- Android round table every last Wednesday - Lisp round table on Thursday - Wifi hackers every Wednesday

You can "follow" their calendar: http://www.c-base.org/calender/termine.ics

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by FrojoS on Sunday May 22, 2011 @05:32PM (#2574274)
And even if you can't attend any of those events. Dont visit Berlin without the c-base. Its a really awesome place to hang out. Same goes for the Tacheles. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunsthaus_Tacheles

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by balu on Sunday May 22, 2011 @05:45PM (#2574304)
Tacheles will be closed by end of july as far as I know. Last time I was in that area there were a hell lot of cops. The artists living in the building try to fight for their space, but I don't think they'll make it. It's a shame that a lot of these alternative spaces are closed down without thinking to make room for yet another useless shop.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by rmoriz on Sunday May 22, 2011 @02:54PM (#2573931)
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by rivo on Tuesday May 24, 2011 @09:54AM (#2579779)
We had our (supposedly?) first HN Meetup Berlin last week and want to do it on a regular basis:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2513404

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by maxklein on Sunday May 22, 2011 @02:59PM (#2573943)
Berlin StartupDigest
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by __rkaup__ on Sunday May 22, 2011 @02:56PM (#2573936)
What is the Berlin type?
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by TillE on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:38PM (#2574034)
A little punk, a little gritty.

Berlin is not particularly welcoming to posh types, or the kind of people who enjoy high-class exclusive nightlife. You really don't want to park your luxury car on the street.

For everyone else, I'd say Berlin is extremely free and tolerant and generally welcoming.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by DavidMcLaughlin on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:40PM (#2574039)
In the east maybe. In the west there are plenty of flash cars in districts like Savignyplatz and in the outskirts of the city.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by TillE on Sunday May 22, 2011 @03:49PM (#2574054)
Yeah, you can get away with being old, boring, settled, and moderately wealthy in Charlottenburg. But if you're moving to Berlin for Berlin, it's probably not where you want to go. (Judging from the Toytown crowd, it seems to be full of people who are forced to be in Germany for their jobs and hate it.)

The outskirts are really suburban more than anything, and completely different.

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by jk4930 on Sunday May 22, 2011 @08:03PM (#2574605)
In the Western city you have more the established businesses, in the Eastern city you have more the experimental and new ones. Both have their (dis)advantages, it depends on your industry / business model and who your customers are. I wouldn't dismiss one half of the city so easily.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by wastedholidays on Monday May 23, 2011 @05:09AM (#2575397)
at the risk of sounding a little snarky, i wouldnt put too much stock into what the toytown people are saying. the two main stereotypes who use toytown are probably not the best for networking and startup related interests.

but the disparate nautre of east/west berlin is one of the best things going for it. especially in the crossover areas like kreuzberg (not kreuzkoelln) and bits of mitte (that haven't been gentrified yet)

Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by wastedholidays on Monday May 23, 2011 @05:05AM (#2575388)
i think the stories of cars being burnt in the east part of the city are a little exaggerated. i havent really seen this type of behaviour in a long time.
Re:London Is Gonna Be Pissed, But We Prefer Berlin for Startups by kahawe on Monday May 23, 2011 @10:05AM (#2575935)
> Berlin imposes berlin on you, you have to kind of be the berlin type to like berlin, but I get the feeling, you can just be yourself in London.

Funny you should say this, I have the same feeling for the rest of Germany (that I have seen so far) as well... Germany and Germans tend to impose Germany and the German way on you.