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Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by anchpop on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:30PM (#25703031)
I'm totally on board with that plan (it would be nice if there were someone I could call to check on a possibly-suicidal friend who wouldn't show up with guns drawn). Americans are four times more likely to be killed by cops than Canadians, and 1 in 1000 young black men is killed by a cop (or some number along those lines). Clearly something should change.

My question is, why call it "defund the police"? The core of the idea is that, in many cases we can change our response from involving police officers to involving some other group who will hopefully be able to do a better job. The fact that this can be accomplished by reallocating funds from the police department, to avoid needing to levy taxes to raise revenue, seems like almost the least important part of the plan. Even then, "defund the police" is only the first half of "defund the police and use the additional funding to create another group that picks up some of the police's responsibilities".

My feeling is that many people view police with antipathy, so they like the slogan and concept of "defund the police" because it feels like a retaliation against the police. I strongly suspect that other ideas, some of which may be much more beneficial than changing the response, will be ignored if they can't be phrased as a tactical strike in the culture war.

Here's one list of proposals [0] for police reform, many of which seem very promising for how little cultural sway they have (delegalize police unions, abolish QI, decriminalize victimless offenses, etc.) I wonder if they have so little sway because they can't be phrased in a sufficiently incendiary manner.

(And by the way, just because there's antipathy towards the police doesn't mean the police are directly at fault. For instance, if police are made to enforce unpopular legislation like the war on drugs, that will obviously make people dislike them but the root problem is somewhat upstream)

[0]: https://medium.com/@yudkowsky/a-comprehensive-reboot-of-law-...

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by novok on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:05PM (#25703433)
I don't know if the the more reasonable but equivalent slogans got replaced by the more spicy ones in some sort of meme survival of the fittest, or if it's a trend of today's social movements to use divisive or easy to misunderstand slogans on purpose.

Ex: "Black lives matter too" vs "black lives matter". or "replace / reboot the police" vs "defund the police". The police one I'm having a hard time thinking of a slogan that would be better, maybe that's why it stuck.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by jancsika on Saturday January 09, 2021 @04:11PM (#25704786)
> "Black lives matter too" vs "black lives matter"

time travels back to a nearby counter-protest, yells:

"All Lives Matter, Always."

time travels back to the future

And now you're back to square one.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by kaens on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:13PM (#25704229)
you call it defund the police because they are disproportionately overfunded.
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by pseudalopex on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:14PM (#25706102)
8 Can't Wait caught on. It isn't incendiary. It does fit on a protest sign.
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by moron4hire on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:47PM (#25703210)
> Americans are four times more likely to be killed by cops than Canadians

I didn't know death by Canadian was something we tracked specifically :P

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by roel_v on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:59PM (#25703356)
It's an overarching term for people OD'ing on maple syrup and those being trampled by moose.
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by tstrimple on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:13PM (#25703517)
Because left wing rhetoric comes from grass roots ground up sort of activism. Right wing rhetoric is much smoother because they have full marketing teams and PR backing them. One is organic. One is designed. Organic movements are messy. Carefully designed messages are nice and succinct.

One example of right wing consolidation around their designed messaging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by YarickR2 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:27PM (#25703689)
So, how do you like right wing rhetoric in Capitol ? Messy ? Organic ?)
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by GhostVII on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:06PM (#25703440)
> 1 in 1000 young black men is killed by a cop

Given that ~300 black men are killed by police each year, I don't think that math checks out.

Agree with police reform, although we probably need more funding in many places, not less.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by ceejayoz on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:10PM (#25703477)
300/year * an average lifespan of 78 years = 23400.

Multiply that by 1,000 and you get 23M.

There are 38M Black and African Americans in the USA, approximately half of which are male.

The math checks out fine.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by GhostVII on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:22PM (#25703623)
Yea that makes sense, surprising to me that it works out
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by torstenvl on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:24PM (#25703645)
It doesn't work out. A 78 year old is not a "young black man."
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by ceejayoz on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:27PM (#25703679)
I would suspect the ages of people shot by police are weighted fairly heavily in the younger category.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

> Risk peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for all groups. For young men of color, police use of force is among the leading causes of death.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by torstenvl on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:23PM (#25703640)
300/19740000 = 0.0000152

→ 0.999984802431611 chance of not-being-killed-by-police per year.

pow(0.999984802431611, 69) = 0.998951909443727 chance of never being killed by police.

→ 0.001048090556273 chance of at some point being killed by police

→ just over 1/1000 over a lifetime.

The math checks out... if we ignore the "young" part.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by anchpop on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:39AM (#25711994)
It still works out if we assume young people are just as likely as old men to be killed by police. Restricting us to young people would probably reduce the denominator of "300/19740000" enough to counteract the fact that the exponent of "69" is reduced.

In fact, if you assume that people are young for x% of their lives, and x% of black people are young, this exactly cancels out and you still get `0.001048` odds of being killed by police.

[dead]
Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by GhostVII on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:48PM (#25703953)
The violent crime rate for black men is roughly equal to the portion of police shooting victims which are black. Violent crime rate (excluding murder) is roughly 2x the average, and so is the death rate to police.

That's why I think we need to be focusing on why black people have a higher crime rate, and how we can fix the societal problems that lead to that. Reducing the number of police shootings is a great goal, but so long as there is a racial (and gender) divide in the crime rate there is going to be a divide in the police shooting rate.

Re:The Capitol Attack Doesn’t Justify Expanding Surveillance by dragonwriter on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:44PM (#25703888)
> Criminality among young black men is also disproportionaly higher.

Is it? Or are young black men just disproportionately more likely to be held accountable for their “Three felonies a day”?