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Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by koolba on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#25693476)
They’ve been shifting the Overton window for years.

Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist.

Are against abortion? Then you’re a misogynist.

Are for a pro worker visa policy and tariffs on imports? Then you’re a nationalist (which isn’t even a bad word but they make it sound like one)

Are for the right to bear arms? Then you’re an uneducated hillbilly.

Are for churches and other religious institutions to decide for themselves if they remain open? Then you’re a religious nut job who thinks the world is flat.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by jgwil2 on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:26PM (#25696274)
Your first example:

> Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist.

It's immediately obvious you are arguing in bad faith. Literally no elected official says this.

Edit: instead of downvoting, please find a counterexample and I'll gladly eat my words.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by totony on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:57AM (#25698146)
I agree somewhat with OP. As an example, this happened in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-jagmeet-singh-rota-raci...

Not the same thing, but this level of discourse is laughable.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:09PM (#25694205)
> Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist.

An infinitesimal part of the population and debate around border/immigration policy favors open borders. The framing of anything remotely mainstream as “open borders” definitely strikes me as a likely sign of racism.

> Are against abortion? Then you’re a misogynist.

Yes. This is correct.

> Are for a pro worker visa policy and tariffs on imports? Then you’re a nationalist (which isn’t even a bad word but they make it sound like one)

Pro-worker? Or pro-worker-with-citizenship? And last I checked the objection to tariffs is that they’re harmful to all the people they’d ostensibly benefit.

> Are for the right to bear arms? Then you’re an uneducated hillbilly.

Not sure what uneducated hillbilly has to do with any Overton Window but the debate right now is over limiting access to certain kinds of arms, not eliminating the right to bear arms totally.

> Are for churches and other religious institutions to decide for themselves if they remain open? Then you’re a religious nut job who thinks the world is flat.

I don’t think the judgment has anything to do with religion, it has to do with allowing exemptions to gatherings being a public danger. You’re still a superspreader if you’re a superspreader with a good healthy positive religious faith.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by akamaka on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:51PM (#25695084)
> > Are against abortion? Then you’re a misogynist. > > Yes. This is correct.

Have you looked at the data of how many women are pro-life? Do you think half of women are misogynists?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018...

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:21PM (#25695515)
Yes, I’m aware of zillions of examples of people actively participating in their own oppression. I think you’ll also find that not nearly as many women are actually anti-abortion as claim to be, at least in their own personal choices. And the women who are are perfectly comfortable forcing other women to carry pregnancies to term. How is that not misogyny?
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by akamaka on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:43PM (#25696517)
Why ask me? I don’t claim to know what they’re thinking, I’m just skeptical at the idea that misogynists are so evenly distributed between genders.

Why don’t you actually go talk to pro-life people and really listen to what they have to say? You might discover a better line of argument than just saying “stop being a woman hater”.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:27PM (#25696973)
It’s not like this is a new concept for me. I’ve had plenty of conversations with women who want other women to carry pregnancies to term against their will. It’s almost always god’s will. One of my dearest friends takes a feminist perspective on it, but only in terms of cherry picked historical positioneering. I’ve yet to hear a single explanation for forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term that isn’t dehumanizing to the woman. Because it’s inherently is dehumanizing.

I’ll ask you again: isn’t forcing a woman to use her uterus to host another life against her will misogynist? You don’t have to be one of the women who share that view to agree that the women who don’t (and the large number of women who do but get abortions anyway) don’t deserve to be forced to be living fetus nurseries.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by akamaka on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:39AM (#25697635)
You certainly can label it as misogyny if you wish to, and you’re not wrong, but ultimately it’s little more than a pejorative. Outside the confines of a Foucauldian academic discussion, these words are used to define and exclude people, not to understand them.

It damages our ability to have a constructive conversation with people who have opposing views, because it implies that they carry some unreasonable inner hatred of women within them, and that they can never be persuaded, only defeated and disempowered politically.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:27AM (#25697971)
I don’t wish to carry on a conversation with people who want to force women to carry fetuses in their bodies. It is worth excluding from any further conversation. I’ve learned all I need to know about it. I want to defeat and disempower them so they can’t harm more women.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by joenot443 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @08:18AM (#25700116)
I wonder if you'll someday see that this dismissive, self-satisfied attitude is actually harming your cause much more than it is helping. All you're doing is coming off as the same brand of ideologue you're specifically trying to take down.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:39AM (#25701792)
I’m not sure where you got the impression that the problem I have with anti-abortion is ideology. The problem is moral: they want to force women to be pregnant against their will. What is there to discuss? What would it benefit women who don’t want to be forced to be pregnant against their will for me to consider it more? Who would it convince? Who is going “oh maybe I don’t want to force women to be pregnant against their will, but this guy is certain about it so I’m gonna have to go ahead and force them after all”?
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by akamaka on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:16AM (#25698599)
I hope you reconsider your approach. It won’t help you much if you one day find yourself in a persecuted minority.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:39AM (#25701799)
I’m several thanks.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:44PM (#25696520)
Yes, plenty of women have been mislead into misogyny.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by logicchains on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:25PM (#25696946)
It's pretty misogynist to assume the only reason a woman could have a different opinion from you (a male) is because she was misled.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:15AM (#25697424)
The only reason for anyone to be bigoted is because they were mislead.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by logicchains on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:19AM (#25697463)
How's being bigoted relate to this? Most people oppose killing innocent people. What is and isn't a "person" is partially a subjective judgement; people who oppose abortion might believe that e.g. a one-month-old foetus constitutes a "person", while people who support abortion might disagree. People have a right to believe that killing one-month-old foetuses is wrong just like vegans have a right to believe that killing animals for food is wrong; there's no objective answer to moral questions.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:47AM (#25697703)
No one believes that people shouldn't have the right to kill a parasite. If the embryo/fetus could survive outside the womb I would be pro-life, but it can't. If you were the only match for someone who needed a kidney transplant should you be forced to give up a kidney? Abortion is no different.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by logicchains on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:18AM (#25698278)
>If the embryo/fetus could survive outside the womb I would be pro-life, but it can't.

The youngest foetus to survive premature birth was around 24 weeks old, so does that mean you oppose abortion of foetuses older than that, as they could survive outside of the womb?

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Saturday January 09, 2021 @03:32AM (#25698652)
If the doctor believes the fetus can survive I can see the argument. Would have to think more to come to a conclusion. So I guess I was a bit presumptuous there, but I'm leaning toward save the fetus. Now that probably doesn't mean 24 week cutoff, since I assume many if not most fetuses would not be able to survive at that point.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by odshoifsdhfs on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:59AM (#25699659)
So you are ok with people that just leave their babies to starve or in a trash can? After all, they can't survive without the outside help, those fucking parasites...
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:10PM (#25703485)
Well the government is willing to care for the baby at that point. So no, you should be obligated to drop the baby off with child services. If no one was willing to care for your child I'd probably be ok with that though.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Friday January 08, 2021 @11:31PM (#25697009)
There’s a long history of oppressive systems favoring their target of oppression as champions of their oppressive views. It’s not misogyny to say that it is misogyny for some women to force other women to keep a fetus in their body.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by rendang on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:06PM (#25695328)
Declining to enforce the borders by deporting those not authorized to be here is de facto pretty similar to "open borders".
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by eyelidlessness on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:28PM (#25695578)
Yes, of course, the only possible expression of border control is absolute, and the only measure available is to treat people who have crossed the same as people who haven’t.

For what it’s worth I’m much closer to an open border advocate than the vast majority of the liberal-left spectrum, and it’s frankly absurd that the right’s take on this is “trump’s bigger detention camps and more aggressive policy means all the others literally didn’t exist even if they were basically his prototype”, when what he effectively did was add malice and lack of humanity to existing policy.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by ntsplnkv2 on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#25696562)
I don't buy this. Who is they?

The same can be done the other way around.

For medical for all? You're a communist

For benefits and worker protections, like unions? You're a snowflake and don't want to work

This is a meaningless exercise.

We have multiple levels of government, we have a courts system, a legislature, and an executive branch, all directly or indirectly elected by the people. I'm not going to make any excuses for anyone for threatening the foundation of everyone's way of life here.

Sometimes your guy loses, fair and square.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by Rapzid on Saturday January 09, 2021 @06:21PM (#25706177)
Holy hell. To anyone reading this; if you believe everyone not in your bucket is in the other bucket, and there are only two buckets.. I would caution you to step back and consider:

1.) Everyone not in your bucket is NOT in the other bucket

2.) Everyone not in the other bucket is NOT in your bucket

Your arguments just appear to be a bunch of straw men to me. I can't identify a single one of those as mainstream viewpoints. Nobody I know who voted against Trump holds them. I'm personally a "liberal" that owns guns and am against bans an buybacks.

People, please, be warry of people trying to convince you there is a binary set of beliefs and it's all-or-nothing.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by colinmhayes on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:26PM (#25694602)
Nationalist is absolutely a bad word. Patriot is a good word. Nationalism is what happens when patriots stop thinking critically.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by aksss on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#25694916)
But we can agree that not every interest in national well-being is bad.

I think that's what GP is saying - talking about (for instance) NATO members contributing their contractually agreed funding to the organization and aligning with our own contractual commitment seems like a sane position, but when it's called "nationalist" either the word isn't bad anymore or the level of hyperbole is so off the charts that the accusation doesn't mean anything. Many other examples of the "nationalism" criticism that have been pretty hyperbolic in the last four years.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by SR2Z on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:59PM (#25693919)
> Are against open borders? Then you’re a racist.

Find me one Democrat with actual power advocating for open borders.

And it's not as if the speech used by xenophobes is free of racial overtones and dogwhistles, either.

> Are against abortion? Then you’re a misogynist.

If you are against a woman's right to do what they please to their own body, you have to give compelling evidence for why. There is no such evidence.

> (which isn’t even a bad word but they make it sound like one)

Because it is a word that historically was used by people who started a lot of wars and were fixated on who/what was _truly_ part of their nation.

The "they" in "they've been shifting" is a strong majority of the people around you who now value racial inclusion and self-autonomy far more highly than ever before. This is a problem of values and pretending that all of them are created equal.

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by jessaustin on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:10PM (#25696016)
... a word that historically was used by people who started a lot of wars...

That's us. USA starts lots of wars. We've still got, what, seven going right now? Maybe it's down to six? (Ummm... Iraq Afghanistan Syria Yemen Korea Palestine Iran well that's at least seven but I'm probably missing multiple wars in Africa...)

Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by koolba on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:22PM (#25696189)
Yep. And the one President in decades that hasn't started any is apparently the war monger.
Re:Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store by jessaustin on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:24PM (#25696230)
No, Iran is his. He assassinated their general on neutral ground. That's an act of war.