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Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by jmercouris on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:04PM (#25563203)
This will revolutionize the delivery industry. I imagine trucks will become mobile drone carriers with drones landing and taking off with packages as they travel through the city.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by ocdtrekkie on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:08PM (#25563239)
I have a lot of doubts on the cost/efficiency of this. Keeping things airborne will always cost a lot more energy than rolling things around. Ground-based delivery robots make some sense, air-based ones likely don't.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by xnx on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:15PM (#25563310)
I had the crazy thought that drones ladden with deliveries could dispatch from the top of a central tall structure (like a skyscraper or antenna), take advantage of the height differential to efficiently glide toward their delivery destination, and then make their return with less weight to carry. Probably very few locales where this could make sense compared to automated sidewalk deliveries like Starship. The speed of the delivery could be astoundingly fast though.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by szhu on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:37PM (#25563511)
Not an expert in this field by any means, but I feel like most of a helicopter's thrust is used to keep it in the air, even when it's lowering slightly.

Maybe this can be efficient if the drone had a fixed wing so it can glide. Or we can make the "structure" really really tall -- perhaps the delivery plane can launch drones that basically paraglide into the city below, and the drones can fly back to a collection center once they've delivered the payload.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by contingencies on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:57PM (#25564283)
This is not totally crazy. A problem would be you then need a lift to carry everything to the top floor and an expensive structure to support it. You also have local wind and weather conditions to deal with at altitude.

Alternatively, you could use a ground-based slingshot to vertically propel gliders, an approach that is already used in the military and for some long distance UAV testing. However, the wing-based UAV vs. rotor-based UAV physics are very different. Landing an elevated glider with a clear path to its target is one thing, maneuvering between trees and power lines in a complex environment without rotors is quite another.

Then you need to look at a 'convertible' UAV with both features... undoubtedly this raises the cost, reduces the carrying capacity, and is already being pursued.

Finally, you could zoom out and re-evaluate the business case. Why not use a network of local dispatch points (handover points to ground-based UAVs or vans) to reduce the distance to the consumer and with the smaller geographic scope negotiate private airspace access on locally agreeable terms. I believe this is the future for general consumption (food, regular deliveries within small package weight/dimension limits).

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by kreeben on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:30PM (#25563449)
>> drones ladden with deliveries could dispatch from the top of a central tall structure

Wouldn't the cost of elevating the loaded drones to the rooftop of that tall structure negate any monetary gains? Wouldn't the cost be exactly that of simply using grounded vehicles that elevate themselves?

(edited for clarity)

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by hatsunearu on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:36PM (#25563500)
lifting those payloads up the tower would just use the commerical power grid and not batteries that you also have to carry up. cables and motors are much more efficient than propellers.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by randycupertino on Monday December 28, 2020 @08:37PM (#25565659)
Reminds me of the pneumatic tubes used in hospitals to send labs between units. You can tour the pneumatic tube system at Stanford- it's several miles long. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/pneumatic-tubes-at-stanf...
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by selectodude on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:51PM (#25563657)
An elevator?
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by kreeben on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:11PM (#25563844)
An elevator indeed. But there's a cost involved in elevating goods to the top of a tall building. My question was, is that cost smaller than the cost of having drones with elevation capabilities take of from the ground?
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by datameta on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:41PM (#25564122)
Presumably the predominant portion of the energy used to raise an elevator is for the mass of the elevator itself
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by saagarjha on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:53PM (#25619251)
Usually elevators are counterweighted fairly significantly.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by datameta on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:34PM (#25624973)
As you say it is actually using very little energy in overcoming the inertia of the system to go up as the counterweight outweighs an empty elevator, and the weight of a drone is insignificant in this regard. However when coming back down the system must raise the heavy counterweight which is only partially balanced by the empty elevator.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by lolc on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:11PM (#25564418)
So what if instead of being on a hill, we accelerate the drones on launch straight up? Make them bullet-shaped so they don't lose too much momentum. If we lose the requirement of them returning on their own we could also simplify the shell quite a bit. Small wings, guidance electronics and a parachute. Then do curbside collection of the shells once a week.

In summary: Rain the deliveries onto the neighborhood with a railgun.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by curryst on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:36PM (#25564648)
My packages already show up looking like they were dragged behind the truck. I can't imagine what they'd look like if they got fired out of a rail gun.

In real terms, I'm doubtful that the majority of people's goods would withstand that kind of rapid acceleration. Consumer electronics frequently break from hitting the floor, a rail gun would probably shred them. You could accelerate more slowly, but then you need more runway, and you might end up building a skyscraper anyways to get a delivery radius that's more than half a mile.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by oliv__ on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:19PM (#25566377)
That sounds like such a nuisance, yet so cool! I can picture a beautiful tall geometric metal structure with drones zooming in and out like a mini airport
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by pc86 on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:29PM (#25563437)
There aren't many warehouses at the top of skyscrapers, though.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by jdironman on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:37PM (#25563510)
And you have to move not only the drones, but also the packages to the top.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by victorthehuman on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:18PM (#25563328)
If we're talking about fixed wing drones in rural environments then it does makes sense. A good example of that is this drone delivery service in Rwanda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEbRVNxL44c
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by lumost on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:14PM (#25563302)
It's likely that the energy cost of drone delivery is a small fraction of the cost a human delivery driver incurs walking to a stoop, particularly if one considers the not insignificant injury risk.

flight is appealing over ground based drones as one delivery truck or base station could concurrently service multiple blocks with lower risk of someone abducting or damaging the drone. Although in all honesty I'm not sure if weight, range, carrying capacity, or speed would work out in a compelling form factor.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by pc86 on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:31PM (#25563451)
You're naive if you think a company is going to take on increases costs via drone-based deliveries to marginally decrease delivery driver injury risk.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by dannyw on Monday December 28, 2020 @11:53PM (#25566873)
Even if you’re a “independent contractor” for Uber, if you get injured while working, their health insurance will kick in as a last resort.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by clort on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:19PM (#25563337)
Energy cost per time of use. drones might be a lot quicker to do the delivery job, particularly if the delivery point needs to be more secure than just tossing packages onto the front porch in plain sight as currently seems to be done.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by reaperducer on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:30PM (#25564028)
I imagine trucks will become mobile drone carriers with drones landing and taking off with packages as they travel through the city.

I saw a mockup video of this once. I think it was for UPS, but I might be remembering that part wrong. The upshot was that it's not useful in cities, but could be used to make exurban and rural deliveries much more efficient because the delivery truck doesn't have to trundle down a bunch of long driveways.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by scrose on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#25564064)
Cities feel like the last place that would be a good fit for airborne delivery, at least in the US.

Take NYC for example: Delivery people on e-bikes are still harassed incessantly by the NYPD and community boards by people being scared of the possibility of being hit by them.

Factor in our paranoia about terrorism and a single accidentally dropped package would likely result in counter terrorism and bomb squads being called in.

I couldn’t imagine any proposal for giant flying robots with multi-pound payloads hovering overhead be taken seriously by even the most progressive leaders.

In hard to reach / rural areas, I could see some benefits from drone technology though. Drone chainsaws, anyone?[0]

[0] https://nypost.com/video/watch-this-helicopter-saw-blaze-thr...

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by ghaff on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:38PM (#25564676)
And presumably, even with detached single family homes in more spread out cities, delivery people don't just drop a package on the sidewalk. I live in a fairly rural location and packages are mostly left in my mailbox or wherever against the house. But I assume in busier areas, delivery people actually make a minimal effort to not make packages completely obvious from the sidewalk.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by mikequinlan on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:48PM (#25563629)
This is what I have been thinking but I would personally prefer they use trebuchets and launch the packages onto your porch (instead of using drones). Not because it would be practical but because it would be cool.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by burade on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:08PM (#25563818)
Is it really worth it to have your peace disturbed by hundreds of annoying little helicopters just so you can have a panini sandwich delivered in 2 minutes instead of 10?
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by jschwartzi on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#25564063)
What about all the paninis you can get if you can make the shot though? Think of it as urban duck hunting.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by brk on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:35PM (#25563483)
I tend to doubt that happening soon. There are still a lot of logistical issues to drones flying around trying to deliver packages to the appropriate locations without a lot of live human supervision. IMO, this more opens up a potential market to justify investment in the space to create solutions.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by oh_sigh on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:31PM (#25564033)
Without even drones, trucks could be motherships that dispatch deliverers on electric scooters for the last quarter mile. Scooters could catch up with the truck, dock to recharge and get new packages and then roll out again
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by powersnail on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:04PM (#25563776)
I can understand it for some long-distanced batch delivery, by a giant drone.

However, swarms of little drones flying in the sky of cities or private properties seems incredibly irritating, however efficiently they improve deliveries.

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by ineedasername on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:08PM (#25563813)
I think about the truly massive # of packages delivered all over the place and think we'll need some significant routing protocols in place before we can easily get enough drones airborne without crashing into each other. Sort of a tcp/ip for millions of drones.
Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by 7952 on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @07:17AM (#25569032)
I don't think communication protocols are a good metaphor because they can be stateless. You can drop packets and it does matter!

A better way to think about it is as a shared data structure. It is a 3d vector space with some attributes that help predict the future. Each drone has a different version of this data structure in memory. The data structure has an initial state at take-off and is updated using radio communication and sensor data.

If the data structure is perfectly synchronised then planning is easy. There is plenty of sky and simple rules can be applied. But it never will be perfectly synchronised. in that sense it is like a globally distributed database.

The data structure may have been edited by another drone and the change not communicated. You may have lost communication and not even realised. Local conditions may have reduced GPS quality giving you false location information.

So perhaps an interesting metaphor is concurrency control. Do we lock airspace or can we have transactions? Can we partition or shard the airspace? When is consistent state required?

Re:FAA issuing new rules to allow drones to fly over people ... by cameronh90 on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:08PM (#25563816)
Commercial delivery drones will likely be some form of VTOL fixed wing craft, which can be significantly quieter when cruising.

Additionally they can usually fly higher which further reduces the noise pollution.