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Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:59PM (#25530291)
I know everyone loves to hate Facebook and articles that confirm that bias are very popular right now, but this lawsuit doesn't seem to have smoking gun evidence like the headline suggests. Have you ever written an e-mail or Slack message to a peer complaining that something at your company might not be working well? Or that something is totally broken and you think it should be prioritized in the ticket queue? Imagine those statements being cherry-picked and used to argue that your entire company is a fraud. That's essentially what's happening here.

The quoted e-mail is from 2016, and includes questions like this:

> That manager proceeded to suggest further examination of top targeting criteria to “see if we are giving advertiser [sic] false hope.”

You'd think that if they concluded that they were giving advertisers false hope, the lawyers would have simply quoted that discussion, rather than an earlier discussion where a manager was asking for further investigation to make sure they weren't giving advertisers false hope. That is, doing their job to check that the ad targeting was proper.

The originators of the lawsuit are angry that their ads were shown to people who didn't have college degrees and did not make over $250,000 per year:

> Investor Village said in court filings that it decided to buy narrowly targeted Facebook ads because it hoped to reach “highly compensated and educated investors” but “had limited resources to spend on advertising.” But nearly 40 percent of the people who saw Investor Village’s ad either lacked a college degree, did not make $250,000 per year, or both, the company claims. In fact, not a single Facebook user it surveyed met all the targeting criteria it had set for Facebook ads, it says.

It's not clear if Facebook explicitly knew at the time that the ad targets didn't meet the criteria, or if Facebook's targeting data was simply incorrect for those who were targeted. Again, if they had evidence that Facebook was deliberately showing ads to people who they knew didn't meet the criteria, you'd think the lawyers would have led with that evidence instead of digging deep into old e-mails where managers proposed investigating the ad performance.

I know Facebook is the quintessential evil tech company in the 2020 zeitgeist, but it looks to me that these lawyers are trying to use that to their advantage to win a court case, not that they've stumbled upon some smoking gun.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by scott00 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:25PM (#25531091)
> It's not clear if Facebook explicitly knew at the time that the ad targets didn't meet the criteria, or if Facebook's targeting data was simply incorrect for those who were targeted.

The plaintiffs don't care, nor should they. When I go to a restaurant and order a hamburger, if the server brings me a tuna melt I send it back. It doesn't matter why the server brought me a tuna melt. Facebook is essentially saying that even though they wrote hamburger on the menu, and accepted my order for a hamburger, I should have known they meant a 41% chance of a hamburger and a 59% chance of something else because taped underneath my seat is a 15,000 word Restaurant Use Agreement printed on microfiche.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by dodobirdlord on Thursday December 24, 2020 @04:08PM (#25531437)
We should give some amount of acceptance to the argument that modern contractual agreements are too complex for individuals to read and understand fully. But this is entirely unacceptable as an argument from one business buying services from another business. It’s not the “fine print”, it’s the contract. If the plaintiff’s argument amounts to “I didn’t read the contract.” they will rightly be laughed out of court.
Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by andylynch on Thursday December 24, 2020 @05:26PM (#25532079)
Not necessarily. Given the scale of firms like Facebook there's a case for client categorisation like financial firms do, with additional duties and protections in play when dealing when with less sophsticated users eg. small merchants. Even beyond this mis-selling does lead to losing lawsuits despite what is attempted in fine print.
Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by tylermenezes on Thursday December 24, 2020 @04:22PM (#25531551)
As someone who has purchased Facebook ads, it's /so very evident/ that this is happening, that it's not particularly hard to compile evidence.

Here's a specific example: we ran around $1k in ads last year, targeting senior-level engineers at technology companies, but the ads were getting liked by mostly people who worked minimum-wage jobs. Twitter and LinkedIn targeting were fine with pretty much the same parameters.

This is one example, obviously, but it's so trivial to see that targeting is almost completely uncorrelated with reality, that it's not hard to come up with more examples.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by styles on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:14PM (#25532448)
I run $1,000's if not $10,000's a day in FB ads. I can confirm we've all known this for quite a long time.

Our general rule is if the product doesn't have broad appeal, you don't run it on FB.

My running theory on all ad networks is pretty simple. There are a very small subset of users, 25%-30%, of people who are regular purchasers and these companies know that based on conversion data. They generally just throw your ad in front of these people and let it ride.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by Breza on Sunday January 03, 2021 @05:44PM (#25625943)
Do you mean regular purchasers or regular clickers? There's definitely a subset of users who'll click much more frequently than the average user.
Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by mNovak on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:41AM (#25534497)
25-30% doesn't strike me as a very small subset to be regular purchasers! That's a huge amount of people.
Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by joe_the_user on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:39PM (#25532674)
we ran around $1k in ads last year, targeting senior-level engineers at technology companies

While sure it sounds like you were ripped-off, I would expect that just about any mass-market medium offering ad-targeting to "senior-level engineers at technology companies", "senior managers", "wealthy yachting enthusiasts" or similar super-high-value clients be a ripped-off if it was offered. I'd imagine anyone in the position would avoid anything that could target them with ads (blocking ads, going incognito, avoiding social media, etc)because otherwise they'd be continuously barraged by companies.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by HotAirBalloons on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:08PM (#25530964)
I think there's a huge difference between "statements are being cherry picked" and Bosworth, a major confidant to Zuckerberg, stating that "[I]nterest precision in the US is only 41%—that means that more than half the time we’re showing ads to someone other than the advertisers’ intended audience". I appreciate that you're pointing out the movement du jour against Facebook, but here it looks cut and dry to me.
Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by otoburb on Thursday December 24, 2020 @04:33PM (#25531639)
>>Bosworth, a major confidant to Zuckerberg, stating that [...]

Talking about (inadvertent) misquotes: the quote was attributed to a "February 2016 internal memorandum sent from an unnamed Facebook manager to Andrew Bosworth, a Zuckerberg confidant and powerful company executive who oversaw ad efforts at the time [...]". (Italic emphasis is mine)

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by nojito on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:31PM (#25533383)
targeted advertising doesn't work.

People are finally coming around to what eBay learned a while ago.

Re:Facebook managers trash their own ad targeting in unseale... by na85 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @02:55PM (#25530860)
You're citing an absence of evidence as evidence of absence.

Consider the following: if Facebook knows its targeting is ineffective and doesn't meet the criteria, why would they put that in writing, knowing that anything on writing can be subpoenaed?