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Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by aazaa on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:02PM (#25511198)
Ironically, this could increase the exchange rate for XRP. Ripple controls a large block of uncirculated token that it sells. With this legal action, I suspect that supply will no longer be entering the market.

Unlike Bitcoin, which issues new currency units through mining, XRP is issued by Ripple. The case against Ripple appears to revolve around this point: is the XRP token a security?

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by bhaak on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:40PM (#25511593)
Jed McCaleb, one of the founders of what would become Ripple, has still a few billions XRP left (https://cointelegraph.com/news/ripple-co-founder-jed-mccaleb...) and he is selling as fast as he is allowed to (http://jedmccaleb.com/blog/my-settlement-victory-with-ripple...).
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:23PM (#25511404)
If history is any indicator, the fundamentals don't actually matter.

The only things that matter are hype, and people buying/selling according to what people think other people are going to do.

Nearly every crypto-related story comes with narratives that it's good for the exchange rate for various reasons, but ultimately the price goes up (temporarily) because people expect other people to expect the price to go up and want to get ahead of it.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by dheera on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:34PM (#25511518)
Yes, so much this. Fundamentals never mattered in crypto.

The true winners of crypto will be the ones who can come up with better models of human nature and hype, and all the factors at play, and leverage that to their success, just like the true winners at casinos are those who can learn to count cards, except with crypto they won't be able to kick you out.

It's also a market where market manipulation and insider trading is fair game, and that needs to be modelled in as well.

It's an interesting time we live in, and it's an interesting anarchic economy with its own interesting set of problems to solve.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by pas on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:31PM (#25512717)
Not even centralization? What happens if the SEC simply confiscates the servers? Wouldn't trading simply cease completely rendering all XRP instantly useless?
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by WJW on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:47PM (#25512311)
In the short term, the market is a voting machine. In the long term, it is a weighing machine. If there is "real" value there it will be reflected in the price and if there is not, that will be reflected in the price as well.

The problem is that humans are impatient and even "short term" may be a couple of decades before it all shakes out.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by drcode on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:42PM (#25511619)
I still think there's a pretty clear correlation between technical innovation of cryptocurrencies and their market cap, even though there are certainly exceptions to this rule (ripple being the prime exemplar)
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by ArtWomb on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:21PM (#25511392)
For an illiquid commodity like gold, I could see this being true. But in the crypto markets, participants have plenty of other choices. More likely is the "fire sale" scenario that was so wonderfully depicted in the film "Margin Call". Early investors are willing to unload at pennies on the dollar just to survive another day ;)

Looks like CrossTower has already de-listed XRP from its exchange. Incredible how fast information gets digested in crypto markets!

https://thecryptoreport.com/an-sec-victory-in-ripple-case-wo...

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by jeffbee on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:49PM (#25512333)
Gold futures are very liquid. They are as liquid as stocks. Any commodity future is much more liquid than any crypto.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by Scoundreller on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:37PM (#25511562)
XRP holders: So, what you're telling me, is that the music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of capitalism.

You: I’m not sure that I would put it that way, but let me clarify using your analogy. What this model shows is the music, so to speak, just slowing. If the music were to stop, as you put it, then this model wouldn't even be close to that scenario. It would be considerably worse.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by spottybanana on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:15PM (#25511335)
XRP is a security, so is Ethereum, as both have been issued to collect initial funding. Bitcoin is not a security because it hasn't been issued to collect funding.

To me the distinction is very clear and simple. However if I really needed money I still would probably issue an ICO and claim it is not a security because there is a big possibility that it will go unnoticed as SEC goes only after the bigger fish.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by agency on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:21PM (#25511387)
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by polyomino on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:28PM (#25511454)
Ethereum does not follow the SEC's definition of "decentralized":

  If the network on which the token or coin is to function is sufficiently decentralized – where purchasers would no longer reasonably expect a person or group to carry out essential managerial or entrepreneurial efforts – the assets may not represent an investment contract.
https://www.sec.gov/news/speech/speech-hinman-061418

However, in Ethereum's case, it is designed to literally implode due to ice age if Vitalik doesn't intervene. The SEC was probably not cognizant of this fact when they made their statement.

https://ethgasstation.info/blog/what-is-ethereums-ice-age/

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by rauljordan2020 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:05PM (#25514270)
Core dev of ETH here. There are at least 100 people from independent teams unrelated to the Ethereum Foundation working on the transition to proof of stake for ETH, which just launched this December 1st. https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-2-0-beacon-chain-goes-live.... This did not require any "Vitalik intervention". My team is not even affiliated with the Ethereum Foundation and we maintain one of the main implementations of the protocol: https://github.com/prysmaticlabs/prysm
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by bhaak on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:33PM (#25511511)
The existence of Ethereum Classic disproves your assumptions of Vitalik's unlimited power over the course of the development of Ethereum.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by xorcist on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:13PM (#25512990)
Ethereum Classic is completely irrelevant to the wider Ethereum ecosystem.

There is no real world use. It probably wouldn't even exist without Grayscale.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by crazydoggers on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:35PM (#25514108)
You’re missing the point. The point is that the chain can fork at anytime. If the community doesn’t like the difficulty bomb, they fork it. Ethereum classic is an example of that happening.

It so happens that the consensus of the majority decided to stick with Ethereum rather than classic. But still no single person or entity gets to decide.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by xorcist on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @05:49AM (#25516344)
Forks can not be functional for any practical purpose. Because every release is time limited, you have to stick to the official release at every time, or else fork completely.

The Ethereum foundation kept a huge stash from the pre-mine, so you'd have a hostile actor with a large position on your forked chain, enough to crash the price of any nascent chain. This combination is a governance model rooted in game theory.

Ethereum Classic shows pretty well how this works in practice. There was controversy around the DAO, yet no fork could be kept functional. It is a Grayscale project which they will keep around as long as people are willing to speculate on it. Nobody pretends it has any real use.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by CryptoPunk on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @11:17AM (#25519132)
>>The Ethereum foundation kept a huge stash from the pre-mine, so you'd have a hostile actor with a large position on your forked chain, enough to crash the price of any nascent chain.

This is completely false. The Ethereum Foundation has less than 0.5M ETH, or less than 1% of the total supply.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by polyomino on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:48PM (#25511672)
the existence of Ethereum classic doesn't affect the governance of Ethereum in the same way that stellar does not make a difference to the governance of ripple.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by bhaak on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:09PM (#25511897)
Stellar is more like LTC as McCaleb took Ripple's code and forked it.

But Ethereum Classic and Ethereum share a common blockchain history and it proves that the community doesn't always follow blindly the proposals of the Ethereum devs.

That event (a part of the community splitting of on a hardfork and forming Ethereum Classic) has affected the governance of Ethereum ever since. Not directly, but indirectly.

Every hardfork is now checked for contentious changes very thoroughly. The last major change that didn't make it because of that was the proposed change to the mining algorithm (granted, ProgPOW had other problems as well).

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by ryebit on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:07AM (#25528058)
Ethereum's Ice Age is real, but saying it will "implode if Vitalik doesn't intervene" is wrong on so many levels, and is incredibly misleading, if not outright dishonest.

---

The "Ice Age" is a builtin feature of the Ethereum chain, where the mining difficulty deliberately ramps up to an unreasonably level past a certain number of blocks. The only thing which can reset this is for nodes to update to a revised consensus algorithm.

The point of this is to essentially force a periodic "vote of confidence" -- instead of nodes passively not updating their software, every few years they HAVE to, or the difficulty bomb comes into play. Which means when a major hard fork update is proposed, no one can sit on the sidelines, they have to either choose the proposed fork, or propose an alternative for consensus to rally around. This cycle repeated every year or so, and has gone pretty smoothly so far.

The point of this is to encourage active participation, so nodes can't sit there and cast "passive no" votes to everything, they're incentivized to actively participate in the network's evolution.

Even if a node doesn't update, mining just slows down. Nothing anywhere in that process will cause the Ethereum network to "implode", that's IMO a rather emotionally charged way of describing things.

---

As to "requiring Vitalik's intervention" -- that's just an outright falsehood.

Not only is Vitalik not directly involved in the coding of any of the multiple independent Ethereum clients anymore, but there is a very large group of developers (of which the "founders" are a very small %) which work out the proposals for updates. And anyone can propose an update -- the software and the high level specs are all open source (and most are on github).

Proposing a full milestone update of the Ethereum network is complex, and probably more work than a single individual could pull off reliably -- but that's the whole point. There is no gatekeeper (and definitely not Vitalik), and the only way these things are accepted is because the larger community (validators/miners, folks running nodes, user community) all feel involved enough to accept or reject proposals.

You could remove every single founding developer, every incorporated organization, and the Ethereum network and it's developers would keep going. And the value of the token derives from it's use on the network, not on those companies turning a profit (and most of them are non-profits).

---

All of the above, along with numerous other aspects of the new beacon chain, are designed to incentivize decentralization of assets and control, as well as active over passive participation.

I think the SEC was quite well aware of the situation, and made the right call about Ethereum.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by boh on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:38PM (#25511574)
Or XRP can just evaporate since the infrastructure required to actually distribute it will no longer be available once the company goes bankrupt (having to pay the various fines and lawsuits that follow).
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:43PM (#25511629)
Ironically, the underlying cryptocurrency infrastructure has little to do with the exchange rates. Most traders aren't actually moving cryptocurrency around so much as trading numbers back in forth inside of the exchanges. I suspect that speculators would continue to trade XRP as long as they're allowed to do so on exchanges, but most exchanges are smart enough to start delisting currencies when they get in trouble like this.

It's truly fascinating how little the underlying technology of cryptocurrencies matters to the exchange rates and how they're traded.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by nullc on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:57PM (#25511766)
There have certainly been altcoins trading where during periods where there were literately zero reachable nodes running on the internet for them.

Fun fact: Ripple actually lost some of the early history of their ledger! Everything before block 32569 was lost.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by Animats on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:09PM (#25511900)
Most traders aren't actually moving cryptocurrency around so much as trading numbers back in forth inside of the exchanges.

Yes. That's why Coinbase got out of margin trading. They claim the SEC made them do it. But all the SEC did was to say that "delivery" meant delivery to the customer's wallet, not an entry on Coinbase's books. Coinbase was willing to exit margin trading rather than actually pay out.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by jaycroft on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:51PM (#25514500)
I'm not sure it's entirely unreasonable on Coinbase's part to disallow margin trading if the margined securities are required to be delivered to the customer's wallet, and not just noted in their account. TD Ameritrade certainly doesn't let you transfer long stock bought on margin off the site - and for good reason! If the market moves against you, TD needs the assurance that they can liquidate your collateral (the stock bought on margin) before your total account value drops below zero - they give you some warning (a margin call) to deposit more funds, if you fall too low in balance, they'll automatically liquidate you. It seems like Coinbase was doing basically the same thing, allowing you to buy on their books but not take the securities off site. The SEC basically says that Coinbase can do that, but then they need to follow the regulations just like stock brokers. If they want to offer margin and not have to comply with regs, then they needed to deliver to their customers (which would allow customers to avoid liquidation / margin calls). So while Coinbase might be being a little disingenuous here, it's more about avoiding regulation than about "actually paying out".
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by Animats on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @12:57AM (#25514839)
Sorry, CFTC, not SEC. Here's the actual rule.[1] This refers to "delivery" when the futures contract is closed out, not while it is pending.

This follows the procedure for physical commodities, like grain. A key point there is that the organization storing the grain is totally separate from the trading process. What you're trading is a warehouse receipt for grain in a grain elevator somewhere. You can "take delivery" by getting the warehouse receipt and starting to pay storage charges. At that point your broker no longer has access to the asset. Eventually someone buys it who actually intends to use it, and they have it loaded onto a train or truck.

The key point here is separation between the broker, exchange, and storage facility. Cryptocurrencies use cryptographic wallets instead of warehouses, so "delivery" means delivery to the user's wallet.

[1] https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8139-20

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by SilasX on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @03:09PM (#25521619)
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. I didn’t know about that rule.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by boh on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:55PM (#25511744)
Markets don't actually move the tokens from one wallet to another, the network specific to the currency has to do that. Since Ripple is centralized, if the company goes out of business, the network does too. You will not be capable of trading it at all if that happens.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by johntb86 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:09PM (#25511902)
In the future they could turn into something like Rai stones, where it's impractical to move them but people still trade ownership anyway.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by paulpauper on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @12:45AM (#25514769)
XRP exists independent of Ripple . The XRP in circulation cannot be destroyed by Ripple or any other entity.
Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by vmception on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:17PM (#25511356)
Thats a good point, if demand remains the same.

But otherwise this document spells out everything that Ripple/XRP critics have been trying to drill into XRP Army conscripts for half a decade.

That Ripple is in the business of selling XRP and uses ambiguity between the context of “ripple” and deflection to say there are third parties using enough XRP to make it scarce in the future. When this was never happening, and to this day is not happening.

The complaint mentions a third party that paid to get XRP this year to use a Ripple Labs product. They bought the XRP from Ripple to the tune of $70mm and immediately sold it on the public markets.

I think the illusion is shattered with this complaint. But XRP should be able to retain its transfer usage, just back at 2013 price levels.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by ehmmmmmmmm on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:42PM (#25511626)
That would be kind of cool in a sense, because it would do exactly the opposite of what the SEC would want. The SEC may then start to realize that they don't have the power to control the crypto market, and that it's going to blow up on them every time they try to attack. The higher price could also be used to fund better lawyers and lobbying against the SEC.

Not necessarily in support of Ripple specifically, but I do think having something that can actually challenge the SEC and reduce them to tears is a good thing. There are lots of things about the capital economy that could use change.

Re:SEC charges Ripple and two executives by shawnz on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:39PM (#25513146)
I don't think the SEC wants to control what users can do here, only prevent entities like Ripple from trying to conduct scams. So I think this action actually benefits everyone exactly as intended.