News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by mattowen_uk on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:50AM (#25504970)
I've also investigated this quite deeply. As I'm sure most of us know, the main problems with 'webcams', either the built-in ones or USB ones that you perch on top of your monitor, are the lens size, and the CCD/CMOS image sensor size. Manufacturers spouting specs like '4k' are deliberately misleading the public if the sensor and/or the lens aren't also upgraded.

The only cost-viable methods to get 'broadcast quality' imagery for streaming/recording right now is to buy a second hand DLSR or mirrorless camera that has 'clean' HDMI out that works without the camera auto-shutting down after X amount of time. There are a few sites out there that list the preferable models[1]. I've got a couple of old Canon DSLRs (That don't do clean HDMI) and a load of lenses, so I've been watching Ebay for a newer model Canon DSLR that I can afford. The lowest cost Canon DSLR body I've seen with unrestricted clean HDMI or that can take the Magic Lantern[2] firmware is about £150.

However... You also need a HDMI-to-USB dongle. This converts the cameras HDMI output into a standard USB Webcam input. I've already got an Elgato CamLink[3] (bought for a different reason a couple of years ago), but you can get cheap China knockoffs for about £15, I don't know how good they are though. My Camlink cost WAY more than that, so I have my doubts about the knockoff quality.

Finally, you need good audio capture that importantly is in sync with the picture. The HDMI to USB conversion adds a tiny delay to the image which can put your audio out of sync if you are using a standard USB microphone. Good software like OBS[4] can correct for this though.

---

[1] https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/cam-link/camera-check

[2] https://magiclantern.fm/

[3] https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/cam-link-4k

[4] https://obsproject.com/

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by riho on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:55AM (#25505397)
Finally made an account, just to reply to this. With newer Canon DSLR bodies you can use the Canon Webcam Utility[1] to directly get the video feed show up as a webcam, with just a USB cable.

I've been using the EOS R as my webcam with the RF 35mm F1.8 lens and it's working pretty great. I just hook it up with the USB-C cable and it shows up as a webcam.

The only annoyance that I haven't been able to get around yet is switching batteries. There's a Kickstarter project[2] for a battery that is hot-swappable, but among those features it also allows you to just use the power while plugged in, which I'm eager to try out.

I haven't tested the audio quality of the camera, so I can't say much about that. I've always just used my headset. I would expect it to be somewhere between meh and ok-ish. Of course you could invest in a proper mic plugged into the Camera[3].

I have it set up on a tripod behind my desk. One thing I have been considering is getting some kind of a monitor arm style setup for the Camera, but so far I haven't found such a product.

The setup of course is quite expensive depending on the Camera, but I already had the camera and tripod since I do photography as a hobby, so I was pleasantly surprised when Canon came out with the webcam utility.

Is it worth it? Probably not if you just want something that works all the time. I mostly use the camera to take photos, so I have to re-mount it every time I come back from shooting, and keep the batteries charged, etc. but people do notice and it's fun to see their reactions and getting accused of being a YouTuber every once in a while.

[1] https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/se...

[2] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/x-tra/the-camera-batter...

[3] https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/best-shotgun-mic/

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by ghaff on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:13AM (#25505883)
I know a couple people who are doing the DSLR or mirrorless to HDMI->USB thing. The results are indeed nice. But, to be honest, I have a Logitech 920 webcam and some decent lighting and that handles even making video recordings pretty well. "Can't buy" seems like a stretch.

And for anything I'm streaming I'm frankly more likely to have issues because my Internet upload sputters than anything to do with the camera. And with the Logitech webcam attached to my monitor, the whole thing "just works." If I had a newer model of Canon, I might have tried it but as it is I'd need to buy a converter.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by chrisa on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:52AM (#25506227)
If you're using it powered all the time, have you checked out the existing plug in "fake battery" options? Here's one example: https://www.amazon.com/Glorich-Replacement-Adapter-Cameras-F...
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by chrismorgan on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:16AM (#25506983)
What resolution does it produce? My Sony α6100 yields only 1024×576, which is not great, though still better than any laptop webcam at 1920×1080, or mostly even a phone or tablet front-facing camera at 1920×1080.

(The Sony α6100 is also quite happy to run on USB power indefinitely, no fancy battery arrangement needed. I’ve used it thus for multi-hour webcam sessions, and plugged into a wall charger for multi-hour recordings, where its battery would otherwise be depleted after about 100 minutes.)

Another thing to be aware of when using fancy cameras like this is the latency: you’ll get added latency of 100–400ms, which is easily into the disconcerting zone if audio and video are out of sync by that much, so you may need to do things like add a corresponding delay on the audio, if that’s connected to the computer directly (which will give much lower latency). OBS Studio can do this. I don’t yet have an HDMI capture card, so I’m not certain about it, but the impression I’ve received is that latency will be much lower with a decent capture card than the USB/PTP approach, though still probably higher than your webcam.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by riho on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @12:03PM (#25508445)
I'm not actually sure what resolution gets passed through the USB cable. I would assume it's either native resolution or at least 1080. But to be fair I'm mostly recording in 720p 50fps, since the 4k is cropped with the EOS R and I felt more fps is better for webcam footage (the other modes are capped at 30fps (25?) or have a crop). Besides, people don't need to see my face in more detail.

I haven't seen any noticeable delay in the footage so far, but now that you mention it, I'll definitely keep an eye on that.

The EOS R can draw some power from USB, but it doesn't seem to be nearly enough, or it doesn't work while recording or something.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by piranha on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:53PM (#25514512)
Latency through a cheap chinese capture card is like a 12-17 ms for me.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by douglasheriot on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:14AM (#25506967)
To mount a camera on my desk, I'm about to purchase this "Neewer Tabletop Light Stand", and a mini ball head with standard 1/4 inch screw for angle adjustment.

I can't vouch for it yet, but hope it arrives and does the job. There's other similar products in other sizes by other brands.

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001657723138.html

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by deepakhj on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:48AM (#25507404)
You can buy a dummy battery with a/c adapter.

Sony also updated their software in august and now support using their cameras as webcams without a capture card.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by iamacyborg on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:00AM (#25505427)
Fuji does something similar with their cameras. I can use their webcam software and get clean video output when I connect my Xt3 via usb to my pc or laptop. No need to purchase extra unnecessary dongles.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by mitch-snipline on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:13AM (#25506962)
I was quite excited to try this when Fujifilm first announced it, but then immediately dissapointed when I found out it does not support the x-t30.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by iamacyborg on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @01:31PM (#25509495)
Yeah, I ended up trading in my old XT1 and picked up a used XT3 at a great price which helped. It's frustrating that not all models are supported though.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by leemailll on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:50AM (#25505732)
Have you try to use the max aperture, and let other enjoy the bokeh? ;-)
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by aosaigh on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:06AM (#25505071)
Great comment. Another few things to add to this if you are going for more broadcast quality rather than just Zoom calls:

- The lens you use if crucial. A nice and fast prime portrait lens (20-50mm f1.4 or something) will make a huge difference with indoor light and give you nice bokeh/blurred background.

- Good quality lighting is essential. El Gato have a good, but again expensive, key light you can use as your primary source of light, but you might need side-lights and back-lights too.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by kevincharm on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:20AM (#25505160)
I use a similar setup with a Panasonic GH5 I already had, but I bought one of those €15 Chinese HDMI capture USB UVC cards [1]. These work surprisingly well, and I've had zero issues using them for ~4 hours back-to-back Zoom meetings on my MBP. They've also received some good reviews on YouTube [2].

For audio, I use my Airpods. Great setup for meetings. Latency is good enough IMO.

--

[1]: https://www.amazon.nl/gp/product/B088ZTK56F

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daS5RHVAl2U

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by Tepix on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:37AM (#25508056)
Panasonic released a (beta) webcam software this year. It supports the GH5 and works well. Give it a try, it's free.

https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/lumix_webcam...

It's available for Windows and macOS. The Mac version seems to have more issues with various apps than the Windows version at the moment.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by piranha on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:55AM (#25505007)
> you can get cheap china-knockoffs for about £12, I don't know how good they are.

They are so-so. Well, they are much-much better than any webcam, of course, but 1080p is almost the same as 720p on them. So as a budget thingie it'll work, but Elgato's adapter is much better, of course.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by Tepix on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:41AM (#25508126)
It's converting a digital signal (HDMI) to another digital signal. Why should there be any quality loss even if it's a cheap chinese model?
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by piranha on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:55PM (#25514524)
Well, because they don’t have enough processing power I guess? IDK, it’s hot all the time and image quality is lower than what I can get from a camera SD card.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by coldtea on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:51AM (#25505737)
>So as a budget thingie it'll work, but Elgato's adapter is much better, of course.

I saw a video where Elgato Camlink opened up, is just a chinese card repackaged with the Elgato logo, 99% similar internally to the cheap knockoffs.

Can't find it again to link it to...

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by rasz on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:54AM (#25505752)
https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/Elgato_CAM_LINK_4K

8 layer pcb with custom fpga hardware, doesnt look all that cheap chinese knockoff to me

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by coldtea on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:34AM (#25506056)
You're right, I watched this youtube video on an expensive brand name item vs several chinese knockoffs and they had the same internals -- but it probably wasn't the Camlink then.

Can't find the video atm, or remember what product it did show, but it was posted in the last 2-3 months and it concerned a similarly on-demand item -- and the "repackaging" brand was respected by creators...

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by fluffy87 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:39AM (#25505284)
I hooked a gopro this way. Their new drivers support using them as Webcams on macos and windows.

Beer Webcam I’ve ever had.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by ktpsns on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:55AM (#25505764)
Is this related to newer firmware or so? Because I have a gopro and the usb stream quality is only very low, compared to the HD recording facilities of these devices. If you browse the web for this, you will find (again, as in the threads here) the recommendation to use a HDMI-to-USB converter to capture the high quality HDMI stream a gopro can emit.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by Ballas on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:34AM (#25505635)
> Beer Webcam I’ve ever had. Sounds like you have had quite a couple...
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by ct0 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @09:54AM (#25506777)
these are trying times, ive had a couple web cans myself
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by bserge on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:21AM (#25505559)
Canon has webcam software for their DSLR's, although I couldn't get 1080p output out of my 750D. Quality was great, though.

You can also just use your phone's main camera, the quality is up there with rather expensive webcams (even for midrange phones these days), add some better lighting and you're set.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by sudosysgen on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @09:44AM (#25506679)
I have a 7$ Chinese knockoff HDMI-USB dongle, it works perfectly well even in Linux. Quality is quite good.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by jacurtis on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @09:50AM (#25506730)
Just to add my own experience, I have a friend who had the Elgato Link and it died. He decided to give a $15 amazon one a try and he said it works "just as good" as the Elgato one. So I then bought my own $15 one (having never used Elgato before) and I can also say that it does the job.

I don't know how to further qualify it, you expect it to convert HDMI into USB and it does it. The resulting quality is amazing. So it performs its function.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by gsich on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:12AM (#25505109)
The cheap USB-HDMI is perfectly viable for using it as a webcam. Qualitywise you won't notice any difference through a highly compressed Zoom/Teams/Skype video. They can output 1080p30 or 720p60, which is again mostly irrelevant in the webcam situations.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by antonyh on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:14AM (#25505127)
I got the CamLink 4k, for use with a 4K camera (Sony AX33). Unfortunately, the HDMI out is only 1080P. So yeah while it works it doesn't feel like much of an upgrade over my aging Logitech C910.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by tomaskafka on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @07:39AM (#25516943)
> The only cost-viable methods to get 'broadcast quality' imagery for streaming/recording right now is to buy a second hand DLSR or mirrorless camera

Erm, no. Camo Studio with iPhone XS I am now using has DSLR-awesome picture, above any webcam on the market. And iPhone's BPM for camera sensor and ISP is probably in 10s of dollars. I want to buy this from kickstarter yesterday :).

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by JansjoFromIkea on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:07AM (#25505843)
Any idea if the EOS M is supported for this? Last I checked Magic Lantern had no webcam type functionality but that was ages ago. If it does that's a pretty great webcam for like £100

RE those chinese knockoff dongles, I got one for £8 off ebay, use it for Pi Zero stuff occasionally and the lag isn't bad at all tbh. I'd guess somewhere between 250ms and 500ms but it maybe gets worse at larger resolutions.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by adam-a on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:35AM (#25507226)
I have an EOS M and it works ok. I had to install a different version of Magic Lantern to get it to not auto shut off, and generally a lot of poking around in the menus. You can get battery replacement AC adapters quite cheaply and my cheap HDMI->USB works fairly well. Lag is not a problem but it introduces black bars on the left and right and in Google Meet my feed is horizontally squashed. Other video apps the picture is fine though.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by thaumasiotes on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:59AM (#25505422)
> Manufacturers spouting specs like '4k' are deliberately misleading the public if the sensor and/or the lens aren't also upgraded.

I vaguely remember reading about a video card that had more RAM than it was able to address.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by fuzzy2 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:05AM (#25505461)
You may be referring to the GeForce GTX 970. It had reduced bandwidth to parts of its RAM.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by 542458 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:47AM (#25506176)
Maybe the RX480? Many of the 4GB models sold were actually 8GB models with firmware locking them down.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-radeon-rx-480-4gb-to-8...

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by thaumasiotes on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:35PM (#25511541)
> Many of the 4GB models sold were actually 8GB models with firmware locking them down.

Definitely not that; the concept was that you had a large amount of RAM you could advertise on the box, but the card was unable to use the RAM. You're describing the opposite, the card has a large amount of RAM that is advertised as a smaller amount.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by denimnerd42 on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @05:54AM (#25504998)
I have a similar setup but don't you find the latency to be bad? At least it's not good enough for video calls IMO. It's fine for streaming to an audience or recording.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by vetinari on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:37AM (#25506075)
With random chinese knock-off and GoPro 3, I had a latency of 10-11 frames when doing 60 fps stream.

It was usable for video calls, but I had problems with reliability (old battery in Gopro, and even if it was permanently connected to power source, it charged only when I turned it on -- which usually was when I wanted to have a call).

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by arvinsim on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:44AM (#25505339)
I tried to use the Elgato Camlink with my Macbook and Sony ala6400. But everytime I use it, the fans would ramp to a noisy level.

Turns out that processing is still being done by the Macbook.

Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by raegis on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:38AM (#25505663)
I have the Elgato 4K and the Sony a6400 and my computer (NUC8 running Debian) does not overheat.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by arvinsim on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @08:30PM (#25513441)
Perhaps the NUC handles thermals a lot better than the laptop. I consistently get around 4-5k RPM when connecting with Elgato Camlink.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by antonyh on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @06:11AM (#25505104)
Rumour has it that the imitation 'Camlink' products overheat and cut out. Probably solvable with the addition of a heatsink if true.
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by Thaxll on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @10:04AM (#25506863)
Well I'm cusrious if you're $2k DSLR gives you a better image than a 150$ webcam on zoom, facebook, skype etc... ?
Re:Why can’t you buy a good webcam? by jobigoud on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @04:14AM (#25515872)
Have you considered machine vision camera in your investigation?