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Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by emptyparadise on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:15PM (#25474653)
You already get banished from half of the internet for hiding your IP address, I hope this wouldn't be used to make our lives even worse.

Imagining a grim future where sites block all ad blockers (how about some detecting if an ad blocker exists at all, rather than its usage?), VPNs, virtual machines, even incognito mode. No full trust = no website.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by chii on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:30PM (#25475041)
Then do go to those websites. It's not a right that you have access to a website.

Seek out only sites that don't block adblock, or has no ads. This might include a paid option (for example, youtube premium, or twitch subscription for ad-free viewing).

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by _jal on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:20AM (#25475291)
This entirely ignores the implications of a society that heads down that path.

There are questions substantially more interesting than a reductionist "do I have an innate right to access private websites?"

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Siira on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:10AM (#25476681)
There is nothing “reductionist” about this petty quibble.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by emptyparadise on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:37PM (#25475072)
I may not have the right to have access to most of these websites but I do have the right to complain about how unethical I find it.

And of course this situation has different implications if the website offers some sort of an essential service, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by judge2020 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:27AM (#25475322)
OP is just suggesting you vote with your 'wallet' by not using those sites - they're not saying you should stop complaining.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by pixl97 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:33AM (#25476776)
Bad actors generally win monitary contests. The entire vote with your wallet is a mostly disproven idea.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by chii on Saturday December 19, 2020 @08:41PM (#25483083)
it merely points out the hypocrisy of those who complain, but continue to use said sites.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by wolco2 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:23AM (#25475551)
Is unethical the right word?

Unpleasant might fit better.

It doesn't break ethical rules to ensure ads are shown so income can be generated to pay for hosting.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by natch on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:36AM (#25475827)
There are many ways to pay for hosting. Ads are just one way. Since they have proven so lucrative for some well positioned businesses, those businesses have pushed the meme that the only choices are ads or paid subscription. There are other ways. I’ve run sites where I happily paid the hosting bill because I correctly suspected it would lead to me getting the job I wanted down the road. You could say that sounds like advertising, but it was not run as a business, much less an advertising business. There was no self promotion whatsoever other than bragging rights.

Many people have agendas, including sometimes very positive agendas, that lead them to support online services of various types in order to further those agendas.

None of this is to say there’s no place for advertising or for paid subscriptions. I’m just saying there are often more options.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by eecc on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:52AM (#25476161)
Ads, fine. Participating into a pervasive tracking infrastructure that strips you bare of your privacy to optimize manipulation of your individual cognitive faults is entirely another thing.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by maccard on Saturday December 19, 2020 @08:58AM (#25477424)
Even as a paying user of Amazon (via prime), google (via one), netflix, spotify, im still subjected to ads and tracking on those services.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by colordrops on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:53PM (#25475157)
How do you hide your IP address? Are you referring to using a VPN?
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by emptyparadise on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:05AM (#25475221)
VPNs, proxies, Tor, you name it.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Darkphibre on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:43AM (#25475389)
Ooof, yeah. I was trying to make a new, purely anonymized identity. Went through an anonymized bitcoin VPN with TOR on top. Registered an email through Protonmail.

Pretty much no social media platform will accept Protonmail as an address without also having a phone number.

Got banned from Discord within 3 hours, literally all I'd done was send three friend requests and join one discord. My IP was rotating and I then needed to have 2-factor authentication (and protonmail wasn't allowed, I needed that phone number).

So, I went out and bought a burner phone, cash, with a 1-year prepaid account. Got it setup over a wired proxy with all radios turned off. Now at least I had a Google account! (they also require a phone number)

And Discord proceeded to reject it, because I needed to have a 'real' phone number from a major carrier.

I essentially needed to craft an entirely new identity if I wanted to be truly anonymous. It was eye-opening how invasive and pervasive the 'track you down to a real identity' accounts have become.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by emptyparadise on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:59AM (#25475454)
And even if you can get through all this, you might eventually get locked out anyway and get told to submit a photo of your government identification.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by WalterGR on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:20AM (#25475540)
What websites ask for that?
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by freebuju on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:40AM (#25475610)
I know Twitter does this. Also saw someone mention Facebook asked for the same when they tried to delete their account. It's a mad mad world out there.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by eecc on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:56AM (#25476179)
That might be consequence if GDPR: they need legal proof of the legitimacy of the request and of its thorough execution.

Just as you can’t really “unsee”, you can’t fully delete data once you’re exposed to it. Something documenting its previous existence will always remain

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by M277 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @09:13AM (#25477491)
Facebook for sure. I don't know about the others.

I had to create a FB account for college, and somehow my account was suspicious according to them. They locked it and said that I needed to provide a picture of my national ID in order to unlock it.

I was baffled and just created another account to be honest.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by diegocg on Saturday December 19, 2020 @08:37AM (#25477300)
Linkedin
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by colordrops on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:12AM (#25476250)
How did you get Bitcoin anonymously? It seems very difficult at least for US citizens.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Darkphibre on Saturday December 19, 2020 @05:19PM (#25481794)
Great question! I've heard that in-person cash exchange is your best bet, if you're wanting to be completely off the grid. There are services out there that can help with the exchange (early in Bitcoin, there was an escrow service in which you deposited cash into a savings account through an ATM, and an anonymous wallet would be credited with the appropriate Bitcoin). Not sure where that stands now.

Oh! But to your question: Mullvad VPN seems to be highly regarded, and has an option to configure a recurring payment that they (claim to) decouple from your identity. Their service even supports defining multi-hop routes.

And to be clear: My goal is to obfuscate my identity from malicious individuals (think: politician that wants to be kinky, but has to resort to online interactions during COVID lockdown, and wants to avoid both simple tracert IP identification as well as a potential password breach & leak of social media platform X). Hiding my identity from governments is not my goal, so trusting Mullvad was an acceptable risk assessment. I'd add additional layers if I wanted to be more anonymous.

My next step, when I get around to it, is to try to track down a cheap anonymous virtual host to SSL into... then at least I'll have a static IP. But I'd still be up a creek if they ever wanted to do two factor for some reason.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by 0xbkt on Sunday December 20, 2020 @04:34AM (#25485051)
You can buy Monero instead, and funnel it through xmr.to to pay in Bitcoins. Another alternative might be fixedfloat.com. Tested both, but you had better not exchange big amounts.
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by oh_sigh on Saturday December 19, 2020 @05:37AM (#25476553)
Did you drive 6 hours to a different city and wear a costume to buy the burner?
Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Darkphibre on Saturday December 19, 2020 @05:20PM (#25481803)
Hmm, no. I'm primarily interested in obfuscating easy-to-acquire identification. I'm not interested in avoiding law enforcement.

But, if you are a citizen in a country that would employ law enforcement against you due to your minority status, I might encourage that protocol.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by slivanes on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:09AM (#25475491)
Sorry to say, but if you act like someone you aren't, you are not going to be welcome at websites that want to know they are responding to a real person.

Basically you are acting like you have something to hide which typically is something that people up to no good would do. I'm not saying you are up to no good, but your activity mirrors as such.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Darkphibre on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:34AM (#25475582)
It's just unfortunate that companies are employing precog future-crime concepts to what (should) be standard privacy approaches.

And, to be clear, I'm not acting like someone I'm not. I'm forthcoming that I have an identity, and I'm even willing to prove that I'm a self-consistent individual. I'm acting like someone that has purchased a month-to-month phone, and have signed up for a free email account, and values their internet privacy. It's become apparent to me that a number of companies discriminate against people for whom this is their only choice... heaven help you if you can't afford a proper phone (or don't have the credit to open a proper cellphone account).

As a transgendered person that's been discriminated against, I do indeed have valid reasons for wanting my most personal conversations to be secure from being used against me. There are other aspects of my private life that that would be wildly misinterpreted if taken out of context. I would prefer to keep my private life wholly separate from my public persona, and that's... harder to do in the age of COVID isolation where everything is online.

It's astonishing to me how many people just... don't care about their privacy these days. And that the bar is so crazy high to be anonymous. To the point that wanting to be anonymous for a few hours is indistinguishable from being up to no good?!

Hell, I'd have to _break_ the law and craft a truly new identity just to be able to be anonymous on some of these platforms that don't have real-world identities as a sign-up requirement.

The argument of "you're not doing anything wrong, so why be concerned about your privacy" is disingenuous. https://lifehacker.com/why-your-privacy-matters-even-if-your...

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by pksebben on Saturday December 19, 2020 @07:20AM (#25476986)
For my money, I can't help but think of people who have legitimate reasons for wanting privacy and how my relative lack thereof deprives them of it. For every one of us that has a well defined presence, it becomes that much easier to spot people who hide, and like you say, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so.

I would venture out even and say that categorically, there are unjust laws that people should be able to hide from - I would want to help them do that. By creating a culture that respects privacy, we insulate ourselves against a lot of the damage that can be done by a poorly managed legal system / toxic culture / opportunistic economic structure. I was just recently reading about how the military buys adtech data to track foreign nationals. I feel like we're living out a Gibson novel.

I do try to "fuzz" my presence as much as possible, because of this. However, like you mention, it ain't easy.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by Darkphibre on Saturday December 19, 2020 @05:30PM (#25481878)
Thank you so much. I was worried recounting my experience would be perceived much like the first person responded. It feels good to know there are those out there that get it.

May your holidays be safe and rejuvenating.

Re:Virtual Machine Detection in the Browser (2019) by isogon on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:37AM (#25475588)
I think the thrust of the complaint is that the society doesn't sufficiently value privacy for its own sake.

In a different kind of society, websites of the sort that you describe would be unpopular, because users at large would place less value on the real-person guarantee than on the non-collection of their identifying information.

Closely related to this is the topic of end-to-end encryption. To withstand attacks that I expect will continue to be mounted on it, I think the society has to believe in privacy as a terminal good. The answer to the argument that "we could catch such and such criminals if we had key escrow" ought to be "yes, and not catching those criminals is a price we agree to pay, because privacy is just that valuable to us".