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Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by mrtksn on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:06PM (#25435834)
How these rules apply for people with multiple citizenships and residence? That’s the case with a lot of people in Europe. How to find out to which jurisdiction my FB data is bound to?
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by DaiPlusPlus on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:17PM (#25435966)
Citizenship matters not. Only residency.

Just because I'm a Britsh person living in the US doesn't mean I'm not subject to the death penalty or am exempt from having to buy health insurance, for example.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by mrtksn on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:25PM (#25436068)
Okay, what does it mean “residency”? In the UK there’s no address registry where you declare your address.

EU citizen works in the UK for 2 years then goes to Turkey for a vacation but likes the place so much, decides to stay for longer when still remote working for the same London company.Also connects through VPN because the Turks love banning websites.

Where this person residence is? Are the UK, USA, EU or Turkish rules apply? How FB would know about it?

That’s not an extreme scenario BTW, it happens all the time.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by OOPMan on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @07:15AM (#25441667)
Countries generally have rules around residency that boil down to "if you spend most of a year within the country you are resident in that country".

Tax residency is separate and the rules are a bit different and again vary by country.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by hvdijk on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:02PM (#25436550)
For the UK, basic rules that cover residency for most are listed at <https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence>, with a link to the full rules for those not covered by the basic rules.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by stale2002 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:43PM (#25438026)
> what does it mean “residency”?

Usually residency is self declared or based on where you have spent the majority of the year working in.

This is already handled, by lots of people, when they declare residency already, for where they currently live/work/are covered by taxes under.

This isn't a new thing.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by himinlomax on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:40AM (#25441068)
> In the UK there’s no address registry where you declare your address

Can you vote in Glasgow's local elections if you live in Manchester?

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by ben_w on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:18AM (#25441309)
It would be more accurate to say there is no single register of addresses.

The electoral register knows I’ve left the U.K.; I had to tell HMRC separately because they don’t share info; likewise the Student Loans Company even though there is a close connection between income and repayments [0]; and when I tried to tell the DVLA, they told me they lacked the capacity to know about non-UK addresses.

[0] the repayment rules means that, for low- and mid-income people, it behaves more like a graduate tax on worldwide income than a loan — it’s a percentage of pay over a threshold, and only high earners can pay it off fully — and if you do a self-assessment tax return there is a box for student loan stuff.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by mrtksn on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:22AM (#25441341)
To vote, you need to register to vote, I voted at London Mayor elections in 2016. You vote wherever you register to vote, I don't remember the details but I guess it was me declaring that I live there and I would like to vote.

In UK there's this concept called proof of address and it's usually bill or a document that is sent to your address, there's no central registry of residents.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by himinlomax on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @08:27AM (#25442224)
The point is, you don't need a register, central or otherwise, for the place of residence to be legally relevant. The way this kind of things work is that, should there be a legal challenge, you will provide a proof of residence to the court or whatever relevant body, just like you do when registering to vote.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by notimetorelax on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:57PM (#25436489)
There are clear rules regulating that, but they may depend on the country.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by mratsim on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:36AM (#25441036)
The rules are anything but clear.

Some countries require at least 6 months + 1 day to be considered a resident, others might have you have a resident even if you aren't there if "the country is the center of your family or economic interests".

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:11AM (#25441269)
The rules for the UK are set out pretty clearly in the statutory residence test [1]. It covers all such cases in more detail than you ever wanted to know :)

What causes difficulties though is that the rules in different countries, even if clearly defined, can contradict each other on the question of tax residency. So you may well be liable to pay taxes in two (or more) countries at the same time.

You may even have to pay taxes in both countries on the same income or gains, unless there is a double taxation agreement that allows you to offset some of those taxes against each other [2]

[1] https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-...

[2] https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tax-treaties

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by lubonay on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:40AM (#25440330)
They may also be very unclear or outright missing, depending on the country.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by M2Ys4U on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:11PM (#25437781)
It will depend on the law.

Tax law favours a designated location for residency, for example.

The GDPR doesn't even operate on the level of residency (at least for data subjects). You're covered by the GDPR when you're physically in an EU member state[0] as regards your activity in that member state or if the data controller/processor is established in the EU. The UK GDPR will be the same, mutatis mutandis.

[0] Or somewhere where EU law applies by virtue of international law, like an embassy, an EU-flagged ship, an area of Antarctica claimed by an EU member state etc. etc.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by ulfw on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:57AM (#25441558)
If you get a Turkish residence or work etc visa and make that your primary residence then that's your residence.

If you're there on your 90day tourist visa, it's not your residence.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by Psype on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @04:52AM (#25440733)
> How FB would know about it? In a matter of fact GDPR applies to people in EU, and data processed in EU.

It also states that data from people in EU has to be processed and stored in the EU.

It's not a matter of citizenship nor residency. Facebook just geo-locate you IP endpoint (so endpoint of your VPN) and manage your data by doing so. So USA rules will apply.

BUT if you are browsing websites hosted in Europe, EU rules will apply to your data.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by vmilner on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:34PM (#25436183)
The US tax authorities disagree.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by avianlyric on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:05PM (#25437206)
For most law sure. But for GDPR the EU explicitly extended it's protection to all EU citizen regardless of residency, and non EU citizen with residency in the EU.

Now there's the practical question of how the EU enforces that protection against companies that have no presence in the EU, but those that do, the EU has made it quite clear they'll take enforcement action.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by M2Ys4U on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @08:42PM (#25438017)
Citizenship and residency (of data subjects) doesn't come in to the GDPR at all.

If the data controller/processor is in the EU, the GDPR applies.

If the data subject is physically located in the EU (even if not a citizen or resident) then the GDPR applies.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by jnxx on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:18AM (#25441315)
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by tremon on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:56AM (#25441168)
One minor correction:

If the data subject is physically located in the EU (even if not a citizen or resident) and the data controller purposefully targets data subjects in the union, the GDPR applies.

As per [0]:

the mere accessibility of the controller’s, processor’s or an intermediary’s website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention

[0] https://gdpr.eu/Recital-23-Applicable-to-processors-not-esta...

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by M2Ys4U on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @08:40AM (#25442341)
That's right, although Recital 23 continues on to say

"factors such as the use of a language or a currency generally used in one or more Member States with the possibility of ordering goods and services in that other language, or the mentioning of customers or users who are in the Union, may make it apparent that the controller envisages offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union."

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by kolinko on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:41AM (#25440053)
In case of GDPR (EU) and securities laws (US), citizenship matters, not location.

For example, almost anywhere in the world if you want to open a bank account they will explicitly ask you now if you’re an american citizen.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by CodesInChaos on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:01AM (#25440796)
My understanding is that GDPR primarily cares about location, not citizenship or residence. There are some subtleties around which location is the relevant one, for example when the delivery address is in a different country from the country the subject is in when they send the order.

> 3.2 This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union,...

(Plus companies in the EU have to comply with GDPR for all subjects)

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by cm2187 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:16AM (#25440906)
I believe GDPR applies to EU residents. I believe the complication is that it also applies if they are travelling outside of the EU, but not if they become resident outside of the EU.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by jnxx on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:21AM (#25441333)
Not only residents (in the sense of having a permanent home in the EU):

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15288746...

For example, it also applies to people which are traveling and are currently located in EU territory (provided that a service is intended to be used by EU residents).

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by dvcrn on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:16PM (#25435962)
It’s not about citizenship but where you live. In place A the rules of place A apply. If place A is part of the EU, EU laws apply.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @08:18AM (#25442133)
It's not even where you live but where you are located.

An American tourist in Paris is protected by the GDPR.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by avianlyric on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:08PM (#25437235)
Incorrect. With GDPR the EU extended their power to protect all EU citizens regardless of residency in, or out, of the EU.

Of course the EU will have trouble enforcing that protection against companies that don't operate in the EU. But the protection remains, even if it's practically unenforceable.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by Dahoon on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:00AM (#25439857)
Incorrect. It protects PII in the EU. It has nothing to do with EU citizenship. It doesn't try to enforce outside the EU either. If you want to move PII out of the EU you have to agree by the rules given. That's not the EU trying to enforce anything outside of the EU but you making an agreement to move data outside the EU on certain terms. It is not the same thing as trying to force EU law on non-EU.

I don't know why people keep repeating this myth. Laws like these are old as dirt. It could as well have been about blood samples from Denmark used in research in the US: the samples are protected by Danish law and to use them in the US you have to agree to certain rules. Again an example of you saying you will follow certain rules to be allowed to transport and use the samples outside Denmark, not Denmark forcing their laws on anything in another country. You are free to not sign anything and not use or move the blood samples or PII anywhere.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by Spare_account on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:19AM (#25440932)
I'm British and have a British passport and I permanently reside in the UK but I'm also technically an Irish citizen because my Irish father was born in Ireland.

I have never applied for an Irish passport but I am automatically an Irish citizen based on my ancestry. Does Facebook know this? Do I need to inform them to benefit from GDPR protections on an ongoing basis?

How the hell is any of this enforceable?

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by geocar on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @07:39AM (#25441832)
> Do I need to inform [facebook] to benefit from GDPR protections on an ongoing basis?

That depends on what you want to do. What GDPR protection are you trying to benefit from?

> How the hell is any of this enforceable?

You can try to reach out to the regulator if you believe your GDPR protections are being violated,

https://www.dataprotection.ie/

My experience with the ROI is that they are unlikely to jeopardise Facebook pulling out of Dublin.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by pjc50 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:32PM (#25436158)
Good question: there will continue to be a lot of EU nationals subject to the GDPR living in the UK. Including Northern Ireland!
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by throwaway2245 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:18PM (#25435979)
I understand that GDPR is based on where the data [edit reflecting comments below:] originates. The law doesn't make reference to citizenship or residency.

If you're physically in an EU country then EU GDPR applies to you there; if you're physically in the UK then UK GDPR applies to you there.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by munchbunny on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:29PM (#25436131)
GDPR is generally based on where the data is located

That is not correct. Specifically, the counterexample is if you are a EU citizen living in an EU country and the actual bits are stored in a datacenter in Texas. GDPR still applies in this case, as long as the website owner accepts EU users. If the website specifically doesn't do business in the EU, things are different.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by throwaway2245 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:49PM (#25436377)
Ah, apologies, you're right to pick that up, it's not quite what I meant. Maybe "where the data originates" is better?

Since the data originates where you are, the data has crossed a border to get to Texas and is therefore subject to GDPR (extra-territorially), I agree.

If you were in Texas when that data was collected from you, and you returned to the EU, I doubt that GDPR would apply to that data.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by PHGamer on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:22PM (#25436783)
gpdr on the other hand is tough to enforce on companies who wholly are in the US. from a sovereign perspective the EU can pound sand when telling Americans how to treat people in their own land.

The only reason the EU is able to get away with this to a degree is the american governments wish cooperation to a point and our treaties. However, I suspect america will only tolerate so much push from the EU.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by tpxl on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:58PM (#25437146)
> gpdr on the other hand is tough to enforce on companies who wholly are in the US.

If you do actual business in the EU they can block financial transactions, and if you don't do business in the EU, there isn't really any incentive to (ab)use the data GDPR covers?

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by munchbunny on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:05PM (#25437215)
Yup that's the idea, the EU is a big market and GDPR is the cost of doing business there.

As a startup though, it's absolutely part of your calculus. If you are worried about GDPR compliance, you can choose to just not launch in the EU (actually that might not be enough, I believe you may need to actively refuse EU users) until after you've proven the concept. Although with California's CCPA, depending on the specifics of your situation, you may as well just carve out some time to deal with compliance.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by munchbunny on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:08PM (#25437232)
If you were in Texas when that data was collected from you, and you returned to the EU, I doubt that GDPR would apply to that data.

I believe that is still covered by GDPR, but I'll openly admit that I specifically chose the counterexample in order to stay within my factual memory of the law.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by tpxl on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:52PM (#25437095)
>If you were in Texas when that data was collected from you, and you returned to the EU, I doubt that GDPR would apply to that data.

Afaik GDPR covers EU citizens traveling abroad, as well as non-EU citizens in the EU.

Edit: It does not cover EU citizens traveling abroad, see thread below.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by throwaway2245 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:12PM (#25437268)
Afaik GDPR does not cover EU citizens (or residents) travelling outside the EU, but of course there is no harm for companies acting like it does.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by jnxx on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:23AM (#25441353)
But as far as I understand, it applies to UK citizens which are traveling in the EU, because they are located in the EU:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15288746...

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by tpxl on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @07:45PM (#25437562)
I have looked around a bit, and apparently GDPR applies to:

- People in the EU

- Any data being processed in the EU, regardless of where the person is located

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by KorematsuFred on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:50AM (#25440090)
Well jurisdiction matters based on which soil you are on and not which citizen you are.

This is overall a good move by FB that puts a lot of pressure on EU/UK to come up with more sensible laws. Note that EU/UK has barely produced any major company operating in consumer web/app. It is for a good reason.

Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by gosslot on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:56AM (#25440126)
I fail to see how this move puts pressure on the EU in any way.
Re:Facebook to move UK users to California terms, avoiding E... by rebolek on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:57AM (#25440131)
I believe the reasons are different than good privacy protection. For example having ~25 different languages in EU.