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Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @01:30PM (#25433288)
> The operators of online platforms - such as social media apps and video-sharing sites of any size - must prioritise complaints raised by "trusted flaggers", who have a track record of highlighting valid problems.

Who determines which problems are valid? Unless I overlooked something, this article seems really vague.

> Likewise, all online stores must be able to trace traders selling goods via their platforms, in case they are offering counterfeit items or other illegal products. "[It] will require online marketplaces to check their sellers' identity before they are allowed on the platform, which will make it so much more difficult for dodgy traders to do their business," commented Mr Breton.

I'm excited about the crackdown on counterfeit products, but I also wonder if it will raise the barrier of entry for sellers (if Amazon has to spend money to validate a given seller, why should they do business with smaller sellers?). Hopefully this authentication mechanism can be inexpensive such that it doesn't disenfranchise too much legitimate business at the small end of the spectrum; big players already enjoy tremendous regulatory advantages over smaller players--no need to compound it further.

> In addition, once a year they must publish a report into their handling of major risks, including users posting illegal content, disinformation that could sway elections, and the unjustified targeting of minority groups.

I'm really wary of "disinformation that could sway elections" and "unjustified targeting of minority groups"; how do you litigate these fairly? One person's "racial advocacy" is another person's "racial patronization". These seem super subjective and thus ripe for abuse. Hopefully this too is just a case of poor journalism and the legislation is better.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by Veedrac on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:01PM (#25434407)
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/proposal_for_a_re...

---

Article 19, Trusted flaggers

2.

The status of trusted flaggers under this Regulation shall be awarded, upon application by any entities, by the Digital Services Coordinator of the Member State in which the applicant is established, where the applicant has demonstrated to meet all of the following conditions:

(a) it has particular expertise and competence for the purposes of detecting, identifying and notifying illegal content;

(b) it represents collective interests and is independent from any online platform;

(c) it carries out its activities for the purposes of submitting notices in a timely, diligent and objective manner.

---

on a Single Market For Digital Services (Digital Services Act) and amending Directive 2000/31/EC

(50)

To ensure an efficient and adequate application of that obligation, without imposing any disproportionate burdens, the online platforms covered should make reasonable efforts to verify the reliability of the information provided by the traders concerned, in particular by using freely available official online databases and online interfaces, such as national trade registers and the VAT Information Exchange System, or by requesting the traders concerned to provide trustworthy supporting documents, such as copies of identity documents, certified bank statements, company certificates and trade register certificates. They may also use other sources, available for use at a distance, which offer a similar degree of reliability for the purpose of complying with this obligation. However, the online platforms covered should not be required to engage in excessive or costly online fact-finding exercises or to carry out verifications on the spot. Nor should such online platforms, which have made the reasonable efforts required by this Regulation, be understood as guaranteeing the reliability of the information towards consumer or other interested parties.

---

Not sure about your third point yet, I've only briefly jumped around in the (lengthy) full text.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by avianlyric on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:19PM (#25434671)
Sounds like Trusted flaggers are expected to be social interest charities like Internet Watch Foundation.

https://www.iwf.org.uk/

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by buisi on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:23PM (#25435446)
The Internet Watch Foundation has made questionable calls in the past, like the one where they blocked Wikipedia for having a controversial (yet legal and historically relevant) image of a naked child.

Despite this, the IWF might be one of the more reputable "trusted flaggers", and this system may open the door for far worse ones to enter into the scene.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by iso8859-1 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:42PM (#25436293)
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by newsgourmet on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:43AM (#25440338)
In Germany Facebook has already given power to "trusted fact checkers" who happen to be extremely left leaning. None of this is a good thing.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by Veedrac on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @12:43PM (#25445624)
I agree that fact checkers are a nasty can of worms, but here they're only expected to flag illegal content, which I don't think is a comparable concern.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by newsgourmet on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @07:23PM (#25450694)
Unless it becomes illegal to post "false information", and the fact checkers get to decide what is false and what is not.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by Aerroon on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:05AM (#25439594)
This sounds like it's something akin to YouTubecs DMCA process. I doubt that they will do a good job making sure that trusted flaggers won't abuse their power.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by Veedrac on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @12:45PM (#25445655)
I'm not going to claim it'll be without issue, but it seems way more robust than DCMA, since there's an appeals process that can boot people out the program if they flag incorrectly too much.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by FleaFlicker99 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @01:50PM (#25433544)
> must prioritise complaints raised by "trusted flaggers"

That's the real concern here. Speech must be handled very carefully, but now we're elevating some specific people to be 'more equal' than others? Who are these people, and why do they get more say? I can see that opening a can of worms.

I don't live in the EU, but just like that well intentioned but shortsighted cookie law, the rest of us will have to deal with the fallout of that for a long time to come.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by john_moscow on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:04PM (#25433719)
This is the trend of the past decade. More and more people are expected to work as replaceable drones without any real career advancement, or a shot at affording retirement, house, or family/kids. But the social pressure resulting from this is cleverly redirected. Instead of being passionate about starting their own business (and competing with the former employer), they are now passionate about policing what others can say or do. Instead of creating a new cool product, they create rules that others must follow in fear of being canceled.

This costs nothing on the corporate expense sheets, but makes the society increasingly more toxic.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by stiray on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:11PM (#25435309)
Well you might address it also the way you have mentioned but there is a tiny issue. European culture and its laws are highly problematic in regards to todays behaviour and income that large internet companies profit from (spying on users and use their data essentially against them - even for just showing the ads). Today there is just no way to make your own 3rd party OS / search engine / social network (regardless if it would be better) as development is too expensive on the other side you dont have financing from the same murky practices that were just too new when current giants (and even those have monopoly so there is literally no way to finance yourself) came out.

Yes, they were first but now they are strangling everybody.

And this is not only true for EU, same goes for USA. Someone will have to do something about it but with the power of home lobbying I dont believe that the States will do anything meaningful. On the other side, EU needs to protect its market.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by jsmith45 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:59PM (#25434378)
The purpose of this is to ensure that organizations like the European equivalents of RIAA and MPAA have basically one click disable buttons (not strictly required, but how most sites will implement it) for content they claim infringes their copyrights, or is otherwise illegal. This would also be used by organizations that track down child porn etc.

As for who is a trusted flagger: "The status of trusted flaggers under this Regulation shall be awarded, upon application by any entities, by the Digital Services Coordinator of the Member State in which the applicant is established where the applicant has demonstrated to meet all of the following conditions: (a) it has particular expertise and competence for the purposes of detecting, identifying and notifying illegal content; (b) it represents collective interests and is independent from any online platform; (c) it carries out its activities for the purposes of submitting notices in a timely, diligent and objective manner. "

I.E. if you can convince your local government that you should be one, bam you are one, and online platform the EU needs to expedite processing of any notices you make.

On the other end of the spectrum, the companies are required to allow you to appeal takedowns and account suspensions/terminations (for TOS or illegal content reasons, not for non-payment reasons) for a 6 month period. Further, if you appeal a takedown or account suspension and the company rejects your appeal, the law will allow you to take the matter to binding arbitration. If the user wins, the company pays all costs, and must reinstate the content or account. If the user loses, they only pay their portion of arbitration costs. (The company's portion are just part of doing business in the EU).

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by buisi on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:18PM (#25434649)
This makes it very difficult to host any sort of "borderline" content in the E.U. If someone decides they don't like your decision on a contentious matter, and a court agrees with them, you're the one who'll take the fall for making the wrong call.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by oblio on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:06PM (#25433741)
> That's the real concern here. Speech must be handled very carefully, but now we're elevating some specific people to be 'more equal' than others? Who are these people, and why do they get more say? I can see that opening a can of worms.

Well, who are the people that censor all other kinds of media? As far as I know movies are censored (Motion Picture Production Code, Motion Picture Association film rating system), music is censored (Parental Advisories), TV is censored (TV station licenses), radio (radio station licenses) is censored, news paper are censored (I can't find the exact reference).

The roof hasn't fallen because of existing censorship, or am I missing something?

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:37PM (#25434081)
To be clear, movie and music ratings aren't censorship. Moreover, only broadcast television and radio are censored (perhaps because radio waves are a public platform?). I'm not going to argue that censoring broadcast is ideal or valid, but I'm certainly less sympathetic to the plight of massive media companies than I am to millions of private citizens.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:44PM (#25434170)
> To be clear, movie and music ratings aren't censorship.

To the extent they are incorporated with schemes that limit access to the rated content imposed by powerful entities outside of the transaction, they are part of schemes of censorship. (Public censorship schemes that incorporate movie ratings, and thus delegate to movie raters the role of public censor, are common.)

> I'm not going to argue that censoring broadcast is ideal or valid, but I'm certainly less sympathetic to the plight of massive media companies than I am to millions of private citizens.

Censorship by a third party equally impacts the rights of the parties on both sides of a potential transaction; broadcast media censorship restricts the freedom of both massive media companies and millions of private citizens.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:32PM (#25434856)
> To the extent they are incorporated with schemes that limit access to the rated content imposed by powerful entities outside of the transaction, they are part of schemes of censorship. (Public censorship schemes that incorporate movie ratings, and thus delegate to movie raters the role of public censor, are common.)

No doubt they are part of "schemes of censorship" in some literal sense, but if someone publishes a rating and another chooses to use that rating as the basis of censorship, the onus is still squarely on the part of the censor and not the rater.

> Censorship by a third party equally impacts the rights of the parties on both sides of a potential transaction; broadcast media censorship restricts the freedom of both massive media companies and millions of private citizens.

You're conflating several things. Yes, censorship by a third party has similar effects to government censorship, but we treat them differently because the government is a special entity (ultimately because it enjoys a monopoly on violence and force). There are legitimate questions about when a third party becomes so powerful that it can unilaterally affect government (as with social media companies being a vector for the manipulation of elections), but this is the purview of anti-trust as I understand it (and I strongly support anti-trust action against social media corporations for precisely this reason).

The other conflated issues are "freedom to speak" vs "freedom to hear". Yes, restrictions on the content of broadcast media corporations limits the "freedom to hear" of millions of citizens as it does with restrictions on social media; however, restricting social media also infringes on millions' freedoms to speak.

Indeed, when you consider that the volume of communication in a social media network is combinatorial, the impact on regulations is far greater than for restrictions on traditional broadcast media.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:40PM (#25434958)
> You're conflating several things. Yes, censorship by a third party has similar effects to government censorship, but we treat them differently

My post was discussing whether censorship occurred and whose freedom was affected. While it did mention certain explictly public schemes, it nowhere argued that other schemes should be treated as government censorship, so you are inventing a position here for the sole purpose of claiming it is in error and a conflation of different things.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:58PM (#25435165)
>> You're conflating several things. Yes, censorship by a third party has similar effects to government censorship, but we treat them differently

> My post was discussing whether censorship occurred and whose freedom was affected. While it did mention certain explictly public schemes, it nowhere argued that other schemes should be treated as government censorship, so you are inventing a position here for the sole purpose of claiming it is in error and a conflation of different things.

You brought up the 'third party vs government' dynamic; I was merely mentioning that it's distinct from the dynamic of 'freedom to speak' vs 'freedom to hear'. I specifically never claimed that you were arguing that we should treat third parties the same as the government. No need to speculate about my motives.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:17PM (#25435390)
> You brought up the 'third party vs government' dynamic

No, “third-party” contrasts with the parties involved in the transaction (mostly the source, which may exercise self-censorship, which does not restrict the freedom of the participants the way third-party censorship does.)

The government would be an example of a third-party censor, not something distinct from it.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:21PM (#25435428)
Fair enough, I misunderstood your meaning; thanks for clarifying. The "'freedom to listen' vs 'freedom to speak'" concern still stands (i.e., no, restricting private citizens' speech on social media platforms doesn't have exactly the same effect as limiting the content that broadcast media corps can publish on the airwaves).
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by jimbob45 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:20PM (#25434685)
Censored for children only. I don’t think anyone over 18 is subject to the censorship. That is disregarding laws specifically targeting pornography, of course.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:23PM (#25434732)
Imposing a proof burden on someone to view content is a restriction of their freedom even if they meet the requirement and have access to the required proof.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by amaccuish on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:46PM (#25435029)
> To be clear, movie and music ratings aren't censorship.

And yet I consider restricting access to educative LGBT+ films under the banner of "18+" to be censorship

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:07PM (#25435849)
I was distinguishing between "rating films" with "restricting access", but yeah, the content of the films doesn't matter--it's censorship whether the content is LGBT+ or Al Qaeda beheadings. The pertinent question is whether a third party is obligated to show you that content. As it relates to social media companies, my position is that if a company is exercising the right to censor (effectively to curate content) then they must also take responsibility when they curate illegal content, such as child pornography or intellectual property--they don't get to have it both ways.

Similarly, I don't think your local theater's prohibition on minors viewing 'adult' content compares favorably to a large social media company which steers and manipulates so much communication that it can unilaterally sway national elections. The latter is an issue of national sovereignty.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by oblio on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:41PM (#25434136)
> To be clear, movie and music ratings aren't censorship.

True, calling them censorship is kind of stretching the definition.

But there's still a small group of people that decide those ratings and the commercial impact of those ratings, as far as I know, is massive.

So it's not direct censorship, but it still has a "chilling effect".

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:13PM (#25435921)
Like I said, I'm not going to die defending censorship of Hollywood or CBS or whomever, but I am much more concerned with the rights of ordinary citizens who only recently got the right to communicate in any sort of broadcast fashion (still nowhere near the power that the media industry enjoys).
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by FleaFlicker99 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:48PM (#25436362)
The internet was such a big deal because groups of people could finally interact without the mediation and filtering of a large (typically corporate) entity determining what's "fit to print". You don't have to search very hard to find the bounds of acceptable thought from corporate-sponsored media, even pre-internet. I don't think I'm alone in feeling constrained and frustrated with that situation. Sure, it's not a North Korea situation, but it's not great either.

There are some very real problems with unfettered access to communication, and I don't think we've solved them yet. I am very concerned that this law will have a range of unintended negative consequences, and I don't think defending our existing (flawed) structure really proves that it'll all be fine.

Specifically we're talking about moving from a model of centralized media control (eg: media companies and the conglomerates that own them) to one where a select group of people get to manage the filtering of content on the largest platforms. That seems like something that will be almost impossible to manage properly, and ripe for (at a minimum) political manipulation.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by eznzt on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:42PM (#25434145)
Trusted flaggers sounds to me like crazy people who spend all day reporting content because they are obsessed or have absolutely nothing to do. Having a system like this in place would lead to bad outcomes.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by jsmith45 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:01PM (#25434399)
No these are organizations that an EU government has granted special status to:

"The status of trusted flaggers under this Regulation shall be awarded, upon application by any entities, by the Digital Services Coordinator of the Member State in which the applicant is established where the applicant has demonstrated to meet all of the following conditions: (a) it has particular expertise and competence for the purposes of detecting, identifying and notifying illegal content; (b) it represents collective interests and is independent from any online platform; (c) it carries out its activities for the purposes of submitting notices in a timely, diligent and objective manner."

edit: Yeah, NGOs and also MPAA/RIAA style associations will probably be the most common entities.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by eznzt on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:12PM (#25434571)
Oooof, I imagine an endless list of left-wing NGOs.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by buisi on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:22PM (#25434717)
Right-wing ones too. Both factions of politics are likely to step in here.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by emteycz on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:30PM (#25438316)
Not on my site. Probably will have to make it P2P or something...
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by 6510 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:04PM (#25434446)
They are employees.
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by tarsiec on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:02PM (#25433690)
Who are these people, and why do they get more say? I assumed their level of "trustworthy" comes from them consistently flagging content or issues of the platform and those reports being valid, as some sort of reputation system, and not some users being selected for more arbitrary reasons.

I could be wrong though.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by throwaway894345 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:45PM (#25434185)
Vanilla reputation systems don't optimize for "validity"; rather, they optimize for consensus--whatever opinions are popular get hyper-reinforced in tight feedback loops. If you believe that our society is irredeemably racist, then a vanilla reputation system will optimize for racism. Basically, the reputation system can't dictate what is valid--that has to be determined outside of the reputation system. In other words, set a clear, objective standard for "valid" content and use a reputation system that holds moderators accountable to that external definition of "validity".
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by juskrey on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:11PM (#25433803)
"Curators"
Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by avianlyric on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:33PM (#25434038)
> Who determines which problems are valid? Unless I overlooked something, this article seems really vague.

We're still early doors on this, but presumably the legislation when it's written will have more details.

But based on how most other regulation in the EU is handled, and thinking of how these questions are handled in the banking industry, I assume the company gets to decide. But the company will be expect to demonstrate to regulators that their content guidelines are:

1. A a minimum restrict illegal content, already defined in law

2. Don't discriminate against protected classes

3. Are fair, along with an explanation of why they're fair

4. There are policies and procedures that ensure they're applied fairly (again with explanation of why it's fair), and there's evidence they're actually being followed.

I expect that there will be significant latitude for regulators to decide what level of evidence is required, and how you demonstrate fairness. After all no one really know how to do this, so it doesn't make sense to write prescriptive detailed laws which are guaranteed to wrong. The different regulators will end up converging on a common understanding, if the don't, then expect the EU to setup a super regulator or similar to force greater convergence.

As for the standard argument of "oh but then how am I meant to know what to do" etc

1. Regulators will publish guidelines

2. Regulators will work with companies to make sure everyone agrees nothing draconian is happening, and equally make sure companies don't get off scot free.

3. Regulators won't punish companies that are clearly making a best effort attempt to follow the spirit of the law.

4. The EU has plenty of expertise doing this, look at financial regulation, GDPR etc No one who's actually had to follow tricky EU regulation before is worrying about this, unless it looks like the regulation basically outlaws their business.

> Hopefully this authentication mechanism can be inexpensive such that it doesn't disenfranchise too much legitimate business at the small end of the spectrum;

You'll be glad to hear it basically already exists in the EU. Open banking will make this process so much easier. Amazon will be able to lean on banks to handle some of this process, rather than building from scratch, with Open banking providing unified APIs to connect to almost any bank in the EU. And talking as someone whos help build bank grade Know Your Customer and Know Your Business processes and systems, it's much easier than you think (not easy, but Amazon won't struggle). Not to mention there's a flourishing industry of tech companies already solving these problems for FinTechs.

> I'm really wary of "disinformation that could sway elections" and "unjustified targeting of minority groups"; how do you litigate these fairly? One person's "racial advocacy" is another person's "racial patronization". These seem super subjective and thus ripe for abuse. Hopefully this too is just a case of poor journalism and the legislation is better.

As with the "trusted flaggers" above, I expect there to be quite a lot of latitude for regulators to decide. With your specific example, entities like the European Court of Human Rights will be the ultimate backstop for preventing abuse. It may take 5-10 years for all the court cases to be raised and litigated to that level, but it'll happen. The EU has good track record of balancing these concerns, and providing the legal infrastructure to allow these thing to be litigated. No doubt it'll figure it out, just like its done plenty of times before.

Re:EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech by jsmith45 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:07PM (#25434481)
The Current proposed legislation for the part you are discussing can be found at https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/proposal_for_a_re...

The actual legislation text (i.e. skipping the recitals) starts on page 43. "problems" here consists of reported illegal content, whether copyright violation or child porn. The legislation is basically an enhanced EU version of DCMA's safe harbor system, but with a focus on all illegal content, not just copyright infringement, and with more ability of the company to reject clearly invalid notices.