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Re:Earnestness by bonoboTP on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:24AM (#25399266)
Scandinavian countries have very high trust societies, based on any survey that looked into this. Why that is is a difficult question and leads us very far. Is it money? Where did the money come from? Oil (but that's not there in all Nordic countries)? Lack of war? Did the lack of war come from their high trust? Or the geographic distance to warring nations and empires of Europe? Is it related to the cold environment, perhaps harder to conquer and less valuable for empires? Do social temperaments have to do with climate? Is it about their genetic homogeneity? Which one is the cause of which? If they go in cycles what influences what in the strongest way? It's a very complicated issue!

It's too reductionist to take only the part "earnest, therefore startup". Sort of implying that if only other nations were also more earnest they'd also have startups and wealth, disregarding all the possibly good reasons that those other nations have not to be trusting/earnest.

But it's also too dismissive to say to this that it's "national stereotyping" therefore it immediately must be false and there can be no connection at all between earnestness/trust and startups in the case of Scandinavia.

Re:Earnestness by qwerty1234599 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:36AM (#25399385)
Scandinavian countries are not really countries. More like a family club. (This is starting to change though)

When everybody is just like you, it leads to high trust, no us vs them mentality. Same is true in eg. South Korea and Japan.

Contrast this with their similarily northern neighbour Russia, which is basically the America of eastern europe. A nation resulting from a melting pot of ethnicitiess, languages, cultures (most current Russians are really assimilated from smaller native cultures, their great grandparents didn't identify as Russian). And the end result? Corruption. Everybody just tries to milk public funds as much as they can, and so forth.

Re:Earnestness by trap_chateau on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:52AM (#25399544)
While I'm not disagreeing with your proposed cause to high trust within a culture, I disagree with 'high diversity causing corruption'. I think the corruption issues in eastern europe are a whole different conversation and I'm not sure how diversity in ethnicity would necessarily cause that.
Re:Earnestness by burntoutfire on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:18PM (#25399781)
Poland is very uniform in term of cultural background and origins (and everyone is white), and yet has very low trust levels.
Re:Earnestness by oblio on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:34PM (#25399935)
Poland (and most of Eastern Europe) has been steamrolled repeatedly by neighboring empires which have imposed what amounted to foreign governments. These governments ruled despite, not due to, the local populations. Ergo secret police, network of informants, etc, just to control the population.

It's hard to have very high trust levels when your own government and state are working against you and when your coworkers and neighbors can at any time rat you out for unpatriotic activities.

Re:Earnestness by silvestrov on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:27PM (#25400779)
> Lack of war?

Denmark and Sweden have been at war with each other so many times you can't give an exact number as it becomes difficult to say when it's a prolonged war and when it's 2 seperate wars.

A simplified list: https://useless-denmarkfacts.tumblr.com/post/125179860721/al...

Re:Earnestness by bonoboTP on Monday December 14, 2020 @06:42AM (#25415920)
What I meant specifically is that they are in part rich because they didn't have to rebuild from scratch after WW 2.
Re:Earnestness by pjc50 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:42AM (#25399452)
Everyone forgets the Swedish empire. And the man whose name is a synonym for traitor, Vikrund Quisling. Scandinavia has hardly escaped war.

If I wanted a glib answer I'd attribute it to a combination of less feudalism and more Lutheranism, plus a bit of Hanseatic trading.

Re:Earnestness by kwhitefoot on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:26PM (#25399866)
It's Vidkun Quisling.

The lack of feudalism as a contrast to other nations and the excess of Lutheranism were mostly a long time ago as was the Hanseatic league. And while Scandinavia looks homogeneous to outsiders, especially to those from far away, the three countries have distinct characters and distinct histories. Part of how each behaves has to do with the climate and topology of each country as well as the accidents of history in recent centuries. At least one Danish king was famous for picking fights with his neighbours which is one reason why Denmark is so small, Sweden had a French king for a while which left its mark on the language and the structures of society. Norway for a long time was simply far away and difficult to travel in which means that decentralisation worked as there was almost no choice. Towns only 10 km apart on the map might have very distinct dialects because there is a mountain in the way meaning that it is a 100 km trip from one to the other.

The glib answers, as I suspect you were saying, are usually wrong or very partial (in both senses of the word).

Re:Earnestness by bonoboTP on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:03PM (#25399654)
I meant they escaped the world wars and the rest of the turmoils of the 20th century. Largely because they didn't have deep historic conflicts with the rest of the big empires.

I mean, sure, not completely, they definitely had some of their population deported by Nazis, but it wasn't such a major impact as elsewhere in Europe.

Re:Earnestness by romanoderoma on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:12PM (#25399726)
They definitely did not escape any recent war.

The WWII in Scandinavia was particularly bad, including the occupation of Norway and Denmark.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Weserübung

They did escape the contemporary ones the same way any other country in Europe did anyway.

Re:Earnestness by oblio on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:36PM (#25399950)
Norway and Denmark (as well as France) were treated with kiddie gloves compared to what occupation in Eastern Europe meant.
Re:Earnestness by anubidiocane on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:14PM (#25400666)
Well, Norway collaborated with the nazis and sympathised for some of their ideas at the time, for example Norway had been experimenting with eugenics programs since the 20s when they started to sterilise mentally hill patients and made it legal in 1934.

But the king of Norway and members of the army escaped to London and directed the resistance from there.

Ask the Jews that owned the houses and nursing homes that were confiscated for the Lebensborn project and the kids that survived it (not many), what they think about it.

Others had it worse doesn't mean they escaped the war and its consequences.

If the eastern block is where you draw the line, you could argue that many parts of Europe escaped the war.

But it would be historically false.

Re:Earnestness by bonoboTP on Monday December 14, 2020 @06:46AM (#25415946)
They had a head start after WW 2 for sure. Earlier they were not affected by Ottoman wars like the Balkans and other Eastern Europe (the extent of destruction and de population that brought was beyond imagination), nor a Moorish occupation like in Iberia. Scandinavia was not razed to the ground and drastically depopulated in recent centuries.

Finland is somewhat exceptional among the Nordics as they were quite poor and had some shit to deal with from Russia (and Sweden) but managed to become rich and high trust.

Re:Earnestness by merdadicapra on Monday December 14, 2020 @11:07AM (#25419098)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Denmark...

They have been at war for 2 centuries like much of Europe.

Depending on who you ask, Ottomans were their allied or their enemies in Scandinavia, at times they have been both like Denmark allied of Ottomans against Russia that then switched side and sided with Russia that gave them land from Sweden.

https://i.redd.it/4r4yx17hf9a51.png

There were big differences between Scandinavian countries and they have been at war for a long time.

Denmark for example owned Ghana, like Belgium owned Congo.

They were richer than say Finland.

France has been involved in less wars during the same time span.

Another example: Spain and Portugal weren't bombed during WW2, they were not occupied, they stayed mostly neutral, but didn't develop an high trust society.

It must be something else.

Re:Earnestness by nindalf on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:31AM (#25399338)
Trust is something that is defined and measurable. And yes you’re right, it is complicated. But the complexity isn’t helped by introducing a random thing called “earnestness” without a way to measure that.