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Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by aritmo on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:10AM (#25396643)
What are they doing?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by ignoramous on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:46AM (#25396817)
Industry leaders like NordVPN and ExpressVPN may engage in P2P routing (to use residential IPs especially) to unblock services like Netflix and Disney+ [1].

HolaVPN unapologetically does this too [2].

All of this is discounting the new-age dVPNs like Orchid (not quite the Tor replacement that was promised? [3]) and Mysterium [4].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664692

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9614993

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15576457

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14331049

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by gary_0 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:26AM (#25396993)
The Internet detects geoblocking as damage and routes around it?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by fpig on Saturday December 12, 2020 @07:59AM (#25397970)
It's always good for a VPN to deny any information about the customer to a server, I would imagine that's not what was referred to as sketchy. Making a user indistinguishable from a typical user from country X is just the VPN doing its job correctly.

It seems, however, that at least some VPN providers use their customers' bandwidth without their knowledge to route other customers through it. I'd say that qualifies as sketchy.

Although on an entirely personal level, I'm not a fan of stuff like going through VPN to use Disney+. I think people should ideally either not watch or pirate geoblocked content. Consuming geoblocked content through VPNs is basically letting such companies get away with discrimination and still get your money.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by guytv on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:45AM (#25398499)
Its much more difficult to take this stance when you live in a part of the world where such services are not available to you, just because of your LAT/LNG. Several times already I found myself "wanting" to pay for content, but the only way to get it was by circumventing geoblocking.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by fpig on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:25AM (#25454940)
Why not pirate it instead?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Spooky23 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:17AM (#25398705)
I agree in principle, but sometimes it’s hard.

I pay a significant amount of money for MLB streaming, only to have many games blacked out. Due to various factors, I cannot legally get access to those games.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by freehunter on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:42AM (#25399454)
It figuratively kills me that I live in an area where three of the five closest teams to me are blacked out on MLB.tv but they're all far enough that it would take several hours of driving to actually go to a game in-person and the local TV stations don't air those games. It's actually pretty much completely killed my interest in baseball since I can't watch any of the teams I actually care about.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by pc86 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:30AM (#25398416)
Isn't the vast majority of geoblocking due to regulations, legislation, or contract agreements? That hardly qualifies as "discrimination."
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by jonathanlydall on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:40AM (#25399432)
It's left over from a time before distribution over the internet was practical, when middle-men added value (local promotion, collection of royalties, etc) to video distrubution.

The internet made them largely redundant, but they still had their contracts and pushed to have things like geo-blocking to maintain their "local monopoly" arrangement.

When legal options are not readily available to me due to geo-blocking, I have no qualms about pirating instead.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by pc86 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:46PM (#25400970)
I'm not arguing in favor of geographic blackouts, I'm arguing against them being "discrimination" by any sensible definition of the word. Nobody's sitting in an office somewhere trying to decide which sitcoms to block to most piss off the Armenians.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by fpig on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:31AM (#25454974)
If they have to block you due to law, then sure since it's not their choice. Signing a contract however hardly makes it any less discriminatory. Signing a contract that means you now have to block Armenians is like signing a contract saying you won't allow Armenians into your store or will refuse to sell them stuff.

Just because this type of licensing contract is common in the media industry doesn't make it acceptable. People should just pirate whenever they hit a wall like that.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by leetcrew on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:50PM (#25400045)
what's wrong with pirating geoblocked content in this case? if the owner actually believes that piracy == lost sales, this would be a signal that the person might have paid for the content if it were available in their locale.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by fpig on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:26AM (#25454946)
Maybe my sentence was confusing, I think pirating is fine. (not watch) || pirate
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by cosmodisk on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:04AM (#25396904)
Back at home the company behind NordVPN is touted as a top company.Recenly was reading an article that they'll be moving to new premises, as they've already got 1500 working for them.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Spooky23 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:19AM (#25398718)
That’s the thing that is so bizarre about VPNs. That’s a big company — why do people trust them?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by sgc on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:11AM (#25399123)
Most users probably don't trust them much at all, but trust them just enough for the very minimal uses they might need them for. I would not use a consumer vpn if my life or liberty depended on it.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by missedthecue on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:27AM (#25399298)
How much trust do you really need to lend to them if you're just using it because you want to unblock Netflix or get around your school/work network barriers?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Spooky23 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:53PM (#25400065)
Many people think they are buying some sort of security.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by hansvm on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:16PM (#25400685)
I don't think that's unintentional either. All my targeted ads lately have been for VPNs, and anecdotally every single one has made a huge deal about the dangers of roaming the internet when not "protected" by a VPN. Every single one of my non-tech friends who has asked about security and privacy has had similar misconceptions too.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Spooky23 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:14PM (#25401769)
They have to. It’s pretty much a grey market business at best.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by kornesh on Saturday December 12, 2020 @07:51AM (#25397925)
How does residential IPs actual work?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by InvaderFizz on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:47AM (#25398510)
TorGuard's "Streaming IP" certainly does. It allows me to use streaming services and sites that are normally blocked for me at my home in Mexico.

I just route my entire connection through it on one of my SSIDs/VLANs.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by viraptor on Sunday December 13, 2020 @12:27PM (#25408213)
You filter by block's AS. It's not always 100% correct, but with enough people you can collect your own list of most common VPS / hosting companies.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by kbumsik on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:30AM (#25398413)
Maybe ISPs have a list of IPs to assign to residential customers?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by tpetry on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:22AM (#25397274)
Very often your residential connection is sold as proxy to e.g. circumvent rate limits. Companies like luminati are used for example for scraping google search results and many more things.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by rdbell on Saturday December 12, 2020 @06:09AM (#25397511)
My startup offers a residential IP sharing model where users get paid to share their bandwidth: https://packetstream.io
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by dunce2020 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:42AM (#25399457)
What vetting do you do on people purchasing bandwidth?

How confident can I be that the Feds wont pay me a visit at 4am?

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by apexalpha on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:57AM (#25398995)
Hang on I can make money by sharing my internet at night when I don't use it anyway and US persons might need internet from NL? That sounds awesome.

edit: The information on how it's secured for packeteers seems a bit limited. (how do you prevent people spraying 192.168.1.1 into all endpoints?).

But it's interesting enough to hit up in a seperate docker network. I'm looking forward to seeing if it'll actually use GBs.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by kilburn on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:21PM (#25399814)
I don't know about NL or elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure this can get you in trouble in Spain for several reasons:

1. Check your ISP contract. If it is a residential connection, it probably says you are not allowed to share your connection with people outside your home (and it could be argued that you are doing so by running this).

2. Check your laws. In Spain, if your connection is used to conduct illegal activities and you willingly gave access to the attackers (which is what you are doing here) then you are a "necessary collaborator" and would be found guilty of these crimes.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by leetcrew on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:52PM (#25400063)
yeah I would think long and hard about 2). if I understand correctly, this would be the same as running a tor exit node. not technically illegal in most cases, but could be very stressful/expensive to defend against anyway. not worth it to save a few dollars a month.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by oarsinsync on Saturday December 12, 2020 @01:40PM (#25400402)
In Spain, if you run a Tor exit node and someone commits a crime via Tor through your connection, you’re party to the crime.

In other countries, “not technically illegal” may apply. In Spain, it does not.

Or to give another analogy, it’s not technically illegal to sit in a car. It’s a different matter if you’re sitting in the car as a lookout while a crime is occurring. While there’s “intent” that matters in that particular example, when it comes to internet crime in Spain, intent doesn’t matter, facilitation is all that does.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by bluesign on Saturday December 12, 2020 @06:55AM (#25397696)
This is the one of the best (if not the best) solution out there I tried so far, congratulations. I am very happy to see it is from fellow HNer.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by rdbell on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:05AM (#25398010)
Thanks for the encouragement! I think I found your username in our DB, and I've added extra bandwidth credits to your account :)
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by saalweachter on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:53AM (#25398975)
I know you're being nice here, and I have no idea if that particular user cared, but like, as someone who has to take frequent user data/trust/privacy/handling trainings, like, don't ever do that.

Firstly, you really want to engineer your systems as much as possible so that you can't look at any PII -- and that includes things like usernames that aren't displayed to the public, and maybe even ones that are! -- as an administrator of your system, without going through some sort of "break glass in case of emergency" process that leaves an audit trail with a clear policy of when it is acceptable.

Second, even if you have access for job-related tasks, you shouldn't spontaneously try to tie user accounts to outside identities; that should be like line 4 or 5 in your data access policy. The right way to do the above would be something like saying "Thanks for vouching for us! If you message me your username @XYZ, I'll add some extra bandwidth credits to your account. :)"; that turns the interaction/demasking into something voluntary on the user's behalf, rather than you creepily stalking them through your user DB.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by johnx123-up on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:47AM (#25398186)
I can't find the pricing anywhere. How much do they charge?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by abc03 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:07AM (#25398638)
1 USD/GB which is cheap
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by planetafro on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:25AM (#25398096)
Is the 3% fee to "cash out" earned on your end or PayPal? It just feels a little disengenuous to advertise a rate but the only way to receive payment is at a loss of 3%. ...or is the model that the sharers are also customers and you encourage them to use the service while discouraging "cashout"?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by hansvm on Saturday December 12, 2020 @02:27PM (#25400780)
It's been awhile since I've done much with PayPal, but at one point a typical fee was $0.30 + 2.9%, so at a 3% fee they'd be taking a small hit in the processing fees for orders below $300 and turning a mild profit when people cash out for more than that. YMMV with their current fee structure.

Agreed it's a little scummy to not factor your operating expenses into the price of the product, especially if that's not blatantly obvious from the outset.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by oarsinsync on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:12AM (#25398044)
My first thought was seeing the 90% cut despite (presumably) traffic not having to transit your network.

My second thought was hoping traffic actually does get proxied through your network, and isn’t pure P2P, to provide anonymity between users.

My third thought was that I should sign up regardless, as this could be useful!

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by abc03 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:02AM (#25398605)
It‘s probably one of the best in terms of value/price as it is pay-to-go. The only commitment is USD 50 minimum top-up. It‘s also pretty fast. Negative is that some countries have few Proxies and they don‘t say how many exactly. They also don‘t have city-level targeting.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Kabukks on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#25399959)
I'm using your service (found it on HN too) for a side project and I'm very happy with it. Good job!

One nitpick: I'm seeing occasional timeouts (probably because the residential endpoint went down recently). Do you have a best practice on how to work around that?

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by rz2k on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:28PM (#25401399)
How does your business manage 7 million+ residential IP addresses with 5000+ clients?

Is being a packeter safer than running a tor exit node? I'd worry that the people willing to run this risk for a small income couldn't afford adequate legal defense if necessary.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by fny on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:36AM (#25398442)
Can you explain why Go and Postgres are listed as technology partners?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by Keverw on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:34AM (#25398830)
I seen that too. PayPal and Stripe on the list also. I think it's just a list of all the providers and software/tools they themselves used. Seems maybe a little misleading, wonder if people might think they are endorsed by Stripe, etc?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by TechBro8615 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:12AM (#25396652)
I think there was a lawsuit against one of them recently. But the gist of it is they’re opening a bunch of LLCs and registering their IPs with ARIN.

When you “geolocate” an IP, you’re really just looking up the registered info for that IP’s ASN in the ARIN/RIPE database.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by hobofan on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:17AM (#25396681)
So the "sketchy shit" they are doing is fulfilling their marketing promise of obfuscating the geographic location for their users?
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by rualca on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:56AM (#25396862)
> When you “geolocate” an IP, you’re really just looking up the registered info for that IP’s ASN in the ARIN/RIPE database.

That's pretty much the whole business model of VPNs.

That, and secure encrypted traffic.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by HeWhoLurksLate on Saturday December 12, 2020 @05:13AM (#25397239)
Oh yeah, secure connections. Wouldn't want to forget that...
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by WhyDoesDangSuck on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:18AM (#25396686)
What's the issue with this if it accomplishes the goal of proxying your connection? I assume the LLCs are designed as a legal shield but would probably have their veils pierced.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by TechBro8615 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:20AM (#25396697)
I mean, I don’t have any moral problems with it. But any time you’ve got one entity opening a bunch of LLCs, I think it qualifies as sketchy.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by pc86 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:33AM (#25398430)
Or good business sense, maybe? If you're in real estate and own a bunch of properties, you're going to have an LLC for each property, and maybe even one LLC for each state that owns the other ones. You could easily end up with a dozen LLCs for <10 properties in multiple states.

Maybe there's some similar avenue here.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by labawi on Sunday December 13, 2020 @02:08PM (#25409144)
Is there a non-sketchy reason why having multitudes of LLCs makes good business sense?

AFAIU, typical reason is to compartmentalize liabilities, but aren't you doing something sketchy if you have reasons to compartmentalize?

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by WhyDoesDangSuck on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:28AM (#25396747)
Hahaha definitely a red-flag if you ever work for a place that plays the LLC game. Wish my younger self knew that
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by justafriend on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:39AM (#25396786)
Out of curiosity, did anything particularly bad happen due to working for a place playing this game? Asking for a friend..
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by My8thAccount on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:58AM (#25396865)
Yea I got hired as a CTO for a startup in my late 20s and thought I had found my dream job. They offered to double my pay as a JR engineer which was a good amount of money for my age and was given 4% ownership that vested over 4 years. Well about 9 months in, the CEO decides the current business plan isn't viable and wanted to setup a competitor to his previous employer. He knew that this could very easily result in litigation from his former company as he was also the CEO there and started playing the LLC umbrella game and suddenly I'm getting paid by some company in Wyoming with a totally different name.

To comfort me, the CEO told me that they would go ahead and vest my 4% shares immediately for the new entity. The checks were still cashing and I didn't think much of it at the time. The company started making decent money about 1M annual revenue, but when profit sharing season came, I was not given anything but a 2k bonus. Then one day when nobody was in the office, I happened to see some documents on a desk that dissolved the company I supposedly owned 4% of and described a 3 tier ownership scheme (dreamt up by a creative lawyer on retainer)

There are many people that will prey on young talent, get them to build their startup infrastructure by promising them 250k+ salaries plus profit sharing. After you build the thing and server your use, be warry of the people suddenly wanting to "help" or "co-administer" the system. It's code for they are trying to learn how to run things without you because you are too expensive now that the system is online. Additionally, in more conventional contracts vesting options can cost you a lot financially if you don't calculate the taxes right.

In the end the CEO and VP got sued by both their former employer and the state of california. The CEO's wife then divorced him and took half of his money after he lost nearly 500k. Karma was a little mean in my opinion on that one haha

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by OzzyB on Saturday December 12, 2020 @07:10AM (#25397750)
> Wyoming

For those reading along, States like Wyoming (and New Mexico IIRC) are attractive for these kind of LLC fillings b/c they don't have a public Company Databases.

That, and cheap taxes/fees.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by levinb on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:10AM (#25398032)
This is going to start to change: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25395278
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by OzzyB on Saturday December 12, 2020 @08:23AM (#25398086)
> The legislation has limitations. The general public won’t have access to the ownership data, a disappointment to anti-corruption campaigners, who say public scrutiny would help combat criminal activity.

Looks like the data will only be available at the Federal level and not open to the public.

> In another transparency setback, the law also exempts some entities from the disclosure requirements, including domestic investment funds that are advised and operated by a registered investment adviser.

Sounds like the practice of using Registered Agents will still be allowed to continue.

So it's a new law that will change how the Feds can access and prosecute organized crime, which is a good thing, but won't help much in allowing us to learn who really owns that new shinny LLC.

Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by NetOpWibby on Saturday December 12, 2020 @04:27AM (#25396996)
What an incredible ending. Glad it worked out for you in the end.
Re:Amazon owns more than $2B worth of IPv4 addresses by TechBro8615 on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:32AM (#25396764)
It’s also how Enron found so many buyers for its energy contracts ;)