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Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by singron on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:44PM (#25367893)
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

--Bertrand Russell

It's an important skill to independently discern the likely from the unlikely on your own, but any idea repeated often enough becomes "truth", and it's an important function of society to recognize fake truths and purge them.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by switchbak on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:42PM (#25368474)
"Fake truth" - that hurts my head almost as much as "alternative facts". Maybe this is a term we can keep out of circulation.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by nbardy on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:09PM (#25369163)
You get rid of bad ideas by engaging with them, not by shoving them out of sight.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by hcnews on Thursday December 10, 2020 @12:26AM (#25370107)
I don't try to change people irl. If they don't understand in a couple of tries, it's better to ignore them and let them go their merry way. It's not my job to educate tons of willfully ignorant people. Something something, don't fight with a pig, it will drag you down to its own level and win with experience.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by UncleMeat on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:39PM (#25369362)
How many times. One time? A thousand times? The ideas have been engaged with. At what point can we stop?
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by colordrops on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:59PM (#25369513)
> At what point can we stop?

What gave you the idea that there is an end-game? The social dialogue is never ending.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by UncleMeat on Thursday December 10, 2020 @10:01AM (#25374338)
> What gave you the idea that there is an end-game? The social dialogue is never ending.

Then this is a denial-of-service attack. Bad-faith actors can hijack the public conversation forever by simply refusing the budge. The public conversation then becomes a free and indefinite platform for them to spread propaganda, and any attempt to change that is portrayed as a great evil.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by travisjungroth on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:19PM (#25369654)
The comment they’re replying to said “get rid of”. That implies an end-game.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by dTal on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:14PM (#25369197)
You seem rather confident of that. Engaging bad ideas gives them volume, legitimacy, momentum. Sidelining them is a powerful response.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by colordrops on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:59PM (#25369517)
Until you are the one sidelined.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by niwork on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:36AM (#25372175)
That sounds nice in practice, but in our post-truth, post-evidence world I am not sure what else we can do. It's impossible to dissuade some of these people and many people viewing YouTube are vulnerable to falling for their bullshit.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by GreenHeuristics on Thursday December 10, 2020 @01:06AM (#25370351)
Great! I will then sideline all your ideas from now on.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by ntsplnkv2 on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:14AM (#25382552)
You already do.

You can't consume every possible idea. You automatically filter them, most of it subconsciously, just like everyone else.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mr_toad on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:31PM (#25369322)
> You get rid of bad ideas by engaging with them

‘Never feed a troll’

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by lame-robot-hoax on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:01PM (#25369532)
Yet we still deal with Holocaust deniers.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rtpg on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:06AM (#25371100)
Why not? Why does no longer publishing flat earth videos not kill the idea for the most part?

How do you think these critical masses around _specific ideas_ are formed? Qanon isn't a whisper campaign.

A thought experiment: we burn all books about Area 51 alien stuff. The whole myth would probably die along with our generation. There's no more stuff reinforcing it, no large traces. No more grainy photos.

That original quote might work for a general ideology but I don't think it works nearly as well when applied to specific narratives.

(Of course this works in all directions, see the obliteration of socialist movements in the 50s and 60s)

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by whycombinater on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:52PM (#25369466)
'It's an important skill to independently discern the likely from the unlikely on your own, but any idea repeated often enough becomes "truth", and it's an important function of society to recognize fake truths and purge them.'

Prove that an important function of society is fake truth purging. And define truth. How big are the fake truths, how much damage do they cause, and how expensive is it to disprove them? If a young child claims that the temperature of a hydrogen atom 52 light years away is 0.1K, but in reality it is 0.01K, shall we:

A. censor the child to stop the spread of misinformation B. print 8 billion flyers to correct anyone who may have overheard the child C. put teams of MIT scientists to run experiments to determine the most recent temperature of the atom D. ignore it E. claim it's 0K according to god's will

In a more practical example, most people are probably split between C, D and E. The C people might land on the moon sooner, the E people might be more fulfilled. D is watching their son's soccer game. Who is "right"?

Acquiring the true "truth" has a cost, and that cost may be too high, and until we have a proper document from god detailing the worth of each person, we can't know who should live and who should die. If we don't produce enough food, somebody will starve. Who should starve? Perhaps the person with the highest metabolism, to spare as much food as possible. Perhaps the dumbest, to ensure future generations aren't crippled and the problem gets solved quicker. Perhaps the meanest, to spare future conflict. Or perhaps future conflict is good, to weed out the weak. "Truth" might mean maximizing human potential, which could imply minimizing human "drag". Spray peanut dust in stadiums! Shoot people who wear glasses! Gene edit everyone to be 9 feet tall! Kill everyone and create and feed a world-spanning singular ultra-brain (skynet?), for _IT_ shall determine "truth".

The word "truth" almost has a political bias to it, belonging to the party of science-people. I say that with a straight face as someone familiar and trusting of mathematics. It's great that we can build F-22s and nukes with it, but, maybe we were better off worshipping Zeus. Actually, people are a relatively new thing, and the main spreaders of "lies". Perhaps the universe was "truer" before people came around. Perhaps birthing a child is to "lie".

And what is the endgame? What happens after our perfect system of rationalism solves every known fact and theoretical possibility in the entire universe? Did we win? Is our final score 42?

Truth is a lie.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by mike00632 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:51PM (#25369873)
If Trump wills it to be "truth" that he won the election then that will indeed cause a lot of damage. This effort is extremely damaging.