News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by mellosouls on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:07PM (#25360823)
But in a series of recent interviews from his $4.5 million home in Dubai, Shah was unrepentant.

“Bankers don’t have morals,” the 50-year-old said on a video call. “Hedge-fund managers, and so on, they don’t have morals. I made the money legally.” [...] “Prove that any law was broken,” Shah said. “Prove that there was fraud. The legal system allowed it.”

At least he's honest in his contempt for normal ethical mores - there's none of the vacillating bull we associate with PR from say, big corporate tax dodgers.

Naive, idealistic me has often wondered how possible an abstract law of last resort for prosecuting people who exploit loopholes in what a jury of their peers would consider to be an unethical way; but I guess it would be to open to abuse by dodgy governments and other entities and presumably not compatible with a democratic legal system.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by Tronno on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:22PM (#25364221)
We have laws like this for computer hackers. No-one ever defends themselves by saying "everything I did was enabled by the poorly designed system, therefore I am not a criminal". Why not for the financial system?
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by thaumasiotes on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:40PM (#25367157)
> No-one ever defends themselves by saying "everything I did was enabled by the poorly designed system, therefore I am not a criminal".

People charged with hacking defend themselves this way all the time. And other people defend them in the same terms.

Recently a guy was charged for accessing public URLs. Sure, they were specifically made available to the public, but the public wasn't supposed to look at them.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by jessaustin on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:26PM (#25369699)
The weev case was a travesty from start to finish. The failure on ATT's part is legendary. The "secret" information was only ever exposed to a professional journalist, who didn't pass it on to anyone. Nothing happened in New Jersey. And of course, as the appellate court found:

...no evidence was advanced at trial that the account slurper ever breached any password gate or other code-based barrier. The account slurper simply accessed the publicly facing portion of the login screen and scraped information that AT&T unintentionally published. [0]

[0] http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/weevru...

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by mannykannot on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:54AM (#25407369)
I think it is pretty clear from the context that a) Tronno is referring to people exploiting vulnerabilities for nefarious purposes, and b) successfully defending themselves with that argument.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by wmf on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:10PM (#25366724)
The CFAA is a terrible law that has been used to prosecute people over very questionable cases. Let's not bring (any more of) that level of subjectivity to finance.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by Emendo on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:13PM (#25368753)
For computer hackers, we have clear laws citing unlawful access to computer systems. Plus, computer hackers don't tend to consult with lawyers before doing their thing.

For traders, we don't have all-encompassing laws covering tax avoidance. Plus, traders have money for hiring professional for finding loopholes.

That's the difference.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:18PM (#25368787)
>We have laws like this for computer hackers. No-one ever defends themselves by saying "everything I did was enabled by the poorly designed system, therefore I am not a criminal". Why not for the financial system?

Because the CFAA is pretty universally hated and makes for bad outcomes.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by majormajor on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#25367018)
> No-one ever defends themselves by saying "everything I did was enabled by the poorly designed system, therefore I am not a criminal".

This is a pretty common argument, actually, when it comes to questions of "allowed" API access.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by YawningAngel on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:55PM (#25367341)
No such law is needed, at least in this case. This guy is up to his neck in lawsuits and the only reason he isn't cooling his heels in a Copenhagen jail is that he's on the run in Dubai
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by toolz on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:51PM (#25367302)
but should our legal system prosecute those hackers that didn't break any law on the books? I'd argue they shouldn't - sure some of the bad guys get put away, but so to do good* guys because of the legal precedent being followed

*good as being defined as likely a net positive value on society similarly bad as being defined as a net negative for society

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:35PM (#25367101)
Exploiting loopholes is virtuous for many of the people in the industry. It demonstrates your attentiveness to the rules.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by wmf on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:41PM (#25361250)
Or we could fix these financial zero-days when they are found instead of letting them run for years.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by gyanchawdhary on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:43PM (#25361277)
“Financial Zero-days” - Excellent analogy :)
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by tehlike on Thursday December 10, 2020 @01:25AM (#25370470)
This should be a thing.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by SilasX on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:06PM (#25362858)
And further, reward people who responsibly report them early instead of exploiting them.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by yowlingcat on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:42PM (#25362301)
But think about what that will do to the zero-day market! It will surely crash from such an action!
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by ThrowawayR2 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:28PM (#25361952)
> "Naive, idealistic me has often wondered how possible an abstract law of last resort for prosecuting people who exploit loopholes in what a jury of their peers would consider to be an unethical way"

Heaven help those who are unpopular or of a class that is widely discriminated against under such a system.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by OJFord on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:59PM (#25362697)
Perhaps GP meant to account for it by 'of their peers', as in equals.

For example, in the UK peers (of the realm) used to have the right to trial by jury of fellow peers (of the realm).

They are now the victims of inequality - while commoners have the right to a trial by their commoner peers, peers (of the realm) have only the right to a trial by commoners!

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by lmm on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:56PM (#25368589)
Ancient Chinese law worked that way; people whose acts were considered blatantly unethical would routinely be charged for violating an imperial decree. Not an actual imperial decree, but everyone acknowledged that the Emperor would have made such a decree if he'd been aware of the circumstances.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by chii on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:52PM (#25369053)
selective application of the law (aka, a lynchmob) has a very chilling effect on the populous. They will not take risks, nor try new innovations for fear of such reprisals.

You end up with a "can't go wrong buying IBM" mentality, but for society.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by lmm on Thursday December 10, 2020 @06:19AM (#25372465)
It wasn't a case of lynch mobs - the court administration were properly appointed officials, and there were checks and balances in place (by the standards of the time). But the mentality that the rules had to be written down ahead of time and any loopholes were fair game just wasn't there.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by petermcneeley on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:23PM (#25361025)
At some point the disease is worse than the cure.

You also use this word "democratic" in a way that does not mean "rule by the majority".

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by Privacy846 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:14PM (#25363015)
> You also use this word "democratic" in a way that does not mean "rule by the majority".

I’ll take the bait. “Democratic legal system” is, according to you, an oxymoron because of the “rule by the majority” part? A common sentiment although easily debunked, since there are always rulers in any system with legal codes. In any case this seems pretty off-topic.

Another in any case (since I can’t help myself): when political scientists talk about “modern democracies” they mean liberal democracies with rule of law etc. Even though very few modern countries are truely democracies.

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by petermcneeley on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:12PM (#25365077)
I totally agree and questioned if I should just leave that part out.

However words are important and are used to disguise what is occurring. Had the parent wrote "presumably not compatible with a non-democratic legal system." they would have been more accurate.

Rule of law is not accurate either. Purely democratic states can fall well within rule of law. The issue here is that there is some law that democracies cannot pass because it violates a higher law.

Piketty writes about this issue in regard to slavery. To free slaves (in the USA) without compensation was regarded as not following within the higher law which is ~ the law of property.

The same issue would be faced with trying to free the "ill gotten gains" of "bankers" from their holdings. The childish subtext of our propertarian legal system is "new rules dont count".

Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by mellosouls on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:26PM (#25361065)
I just meant legal systems as exist in developed democracies but that's more long-winded and potentially open to red-herring discussions on which countries are democratic etc.
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by goodcanadian on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:54PM (#25361409)
Perhaps, "rule of law" is what you were looking for?
Re:An unemployed trader who became a $700M exile by mellosouls on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:19PM (#25361777)
I think that probably also has room for interpretation. Anyway, hopefully most will have known what I meant.