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Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by tjoff on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:28AM (#25359477)
RAID is not a backup solution, its an uptime solution.

I know. Doesn't change the fact there exist no sensible way to backup a decently sized pool in a home-user scenario.

Now we might disagree on what is sensible. And some things might not need a backup.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by kaliszad on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:21PM (#25361002)
Some people mention ZFS send feature, which should prevent sending unchanged blocks. You could use rsnapshot to a different machine (that needs to be just a little bit larger than the original one) and personally I would recommend borg backup, which can deduplicate, compress and encrypt and isn't hard to setup. This could result in the backups being a fraction of the original - depending on the data. You can use AWS S3/ DO Spaces which is a lot cheaper or other compatible interfaces using rclone serve sftp + sshfs with borg or in the case of restic or duplicacy natively. You can also lookup tarsnap, rsync.net and others for remote backups.

In home scenarios, you usually care about documents, pictures a few specific videos and some music above everything else. This tends to be a fraction of the total capacity. The rest doesn't change very often and is not such a loss but tends to be quite huge in comparison. So to backup all documents and pictures one or two external drives and/ or a cloud backup is sufficient.

Personally, for some important documents I use orgpad.com which I help build. I am personally responsible for the infrastructure - so the backups actually have at least three tiers, independent providers etc. That is just a side effect of having a SaaS platform with a reasonable and contactable team behind it.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by dsr_ on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:49AM (#25359800)
zfs send. Keep different filesystems for system backup, personal data, media storage, gross hoarding. Consider not backing up the media storage and gross hoarding filesystems.

Targets:

1. That NAS off in the corner built from an old desktop.

2. rsync.net and similar.

3. your encrypted cloud backup service of choice, through an adapter.

If the value of your data is less than the cost to protect it, you know it is disposable, you just wish it weren't.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by res0nat0r on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:48PM (#25362435)
Backing up TB's of data isn't cheap no matter what type of cloud backup solution you're picking unfortunately. I don't think most here want to spend $1000/year on backing up their entire NAS.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Fnoord on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:26PM (#25364303)
> I don't think most here want to spend $1000/year on backing up their entire NAS.

These 2 solutions cost less than 10 USD/month: Jottacloud [1] and zfs.rent [2]. The former is even hosted in privacy-friendly Norway, and its 5 TB unlimited with going over that you get upload-capped. So I pay 90 EUR/year for Jottacloud. Which is approx 10% of your projected 1000 USD.

[1] https://www.jottacloud.com/en/

[2] https://zfs.rent/

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Dylan16807 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:22AM (#25370837)
Jottacloud could be a useful offering, but someone considering the best way to balance many drives on a NAS and worried about spending $1000/year to back it up is probably not going to fit into a single account.

zfs.rent is an interesting model, though quite beta and currently not accepting users. And those prices add up pretty fast. Let's say you want to back up about 4 drives of data. That's $960 a year for the first two years, then $480 a year after. Or if you want any redundancy at all, $1200/$600. You'd probably want to find your own cheaper box to stuff hard drives into, and at that point you're far gone from "cloud".

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:17PM (#25365164)
What about the initial replication? My NAS is currently sitting at about 8TB used, which even at the maximum 10Mb/s upload of my current ISP (best in the area of course, because 'murika) would take 75 days. Your first link doesn't seem to say anything about alternatives for getting the initial data set to them, and your second link, well "We have queued up 200 users and have decided to close new requests for the time being. Please check back soon!" basically means it is imaginary for the time being.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Fnoord on Thursday December 10, 2020 @07:43AM (#25373078)
Buy a second hand "enterprise" server and buy some new HDDs. Set the server up at work/home, and physically put the server at a data center near your vicinity. If you already live in USA, hosting elsewhere doesn't get you much. The problem with hosting in USA is for sensitive data for people outside of USA (EU for example).
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by mindslight on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:53PM (#25367316)
1. "Unlimited" plans marketed for personal users are unsustainable, which is why they invariably push you into some proprietary app. Sure they might let you dump 24TB on it while they're growing, but they'll inevitably tighten that up. And a key feature of backups is long term - do you really want to be reuploading 24TB in a year or two? Look at their business pricing for the actual no-nonsense cost.

2. You can build a 8TBx4+2 raidz2 with EasyStores for $720. Backing that up to a raidz1 zfs.rent is $1200 for a single year. $2500 for 3 years by prepurchasing the drives.

An estimate of $1000/year for full cloud backups isn't wrong.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Fnoord on Thursday December 10, 2020 @07:39AM (#25373047)
It isn't "unlimited", it is "unlimited with caveat". It is 5 TB soft cap after which upload limits apply, which get progressively harsh the more you are from that 5 TB soft limit. Just like I wrote in my previous post, and as they write on their website. For me, 5 TB in a privacy-friendly country is a bargain deal. Duplicati has support for Jottacloud, and they also provide an CLI for their API.

If I had an amount of 24 TB to back up I'd buy my own server and harddisks, and I'd physically set that server up at work or at home. Then, travel to the data center (I live in Amsterdam Area, so enough choice) and put the server there, again, physically. No need to "upload 24 TB".

RAIDZ et al. is about availability. Which makes sense for businesses, but for personal data an offsite backup makes more sense. I'd just go with a mirror of 2 different disks, with different serial numbers (ie. different orders).

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by mindslight on Thursday December 10, 2020 @10:46AM (#25374906)
I was speaking generally. I'm glad the service fits for you, and it appears that they have setup reasonably-structured incentives.

But using that pricing, 24TB with Jottacloud would be 450 EUR/year, which is still on the order of $1000. The larger point is that disk sizes are always growing, and while 24TB may seem unnecessary to you, it's very easy to build an array that is cumbersome to backup. And IME this has remained true for the past two decades.

You're right that the cost effective way of performing large backups seems to be just buying another array and hosting it somewhere offsite. But that still doubles your array cost, and so is not something to be done lightly.

FWIW personal users want availability too, unless rebuilding arrays from scratch is your hobby. A simple mirror is a form a raid, which you can only get away with if your storage requirements can be taken care of by a single spindle. If that's where you are, fantastic. But that doesn't describe most home ZFS users.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Dylan16807 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:18PM (#25377309)
Unless you have tons of data churn or really love burst uploads, you should treat Jottacloud as roughly 15TB of capacity. Here's the speed chart: https://docs.jottacloud.com/en/articles/3271114-reduced-uplo...

So for 24TB you would use two accounts, assuming they're fine with that, and your uploads would run at 5Mbps per thread, with 12 threads in parallel.

That will let you upload 100GB every 4 hours, which should be enough. And the total cost would be 180EUR/year, which is pretty far from $1000.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by mindslight on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:42PM (#25388397)
Thanks for taking the time to explain the details of their offering. I agree that looks well thought out and a much better value than anything else I've seen, especially for the market of personal NAS stuff we're talking about. And a quick search looks like it can be supported by Free (ie secure) backup solutions like duplicity.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by denkmoon on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:14PM (#25368210)
b2 backblaze is quite cheap.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by justinclift on Thursday December 10, 2020 @01:08AM (#25370360)
Further useful info:

https://www.cloudwards.net/backblaze-pricing/

It does sound good. :)

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by mindslight on Thursday December 10, 2020 @11:12AM (#25375209)
16TB is basically the smallest array where someone would face the question of mirrors vs raidz. 16TB * $0.005 / GB-mo = $960/year.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by mnd999 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:18PM (#25360967)
2) and 3) requires a decent broadband upload speed. Home broadband often doesn’t provide this.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Fnoord on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:39PM (#25364522)
Depends where you're from I guess.

Its also just the first backup which takes a (long) while. If you got only 10 mbit upload, then you're able to upload 600 mbit per minute, or 36000 mbit per hour. Which is about 4500 mB/hour (or ~4,4 GB/hour). Which results in 108000 mB/day (or ~105 GB/day). Its about 3/4 of a TB a week.

I'm glad I got 30+ mbit upload with my VDSL2. My first backups took ages (I got 5 TB with Jottacloud). First I thought it was Duplicati being slow with regards to cryptography or being .NET, but nope that ain't it.

Incremental backups during night are not going to hamper the connection though.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:19PM (#25365194)
> Its about 3/4 of a TB a week.

That's best case. Anyone who's done large transfers over the internet knows reality will be much worse.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by justinclift on Thursday December 10, 2020 @01:23AM (#25370461)
Bearing in mind that it's likely not practical to use 100% of available upload bandwidth for extremely long periods of time. Generally speaking anyway. :)
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Fnoord on Thursday December 10, 2020 @12:14PM (#25375857)
True, you're both right, thanks. I should've added that as a disclaimer.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by metalliqaz on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:12AM (#25360141)
Yeah as much as my daughter likes the Trolls movie, I'm not paying to back that up.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:59AM (#25360743)
Redacted zfs send/receive in OpenZFS 2.0 might be interesting to you: https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/7958
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by metalliqaz on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:15PM (#25360930)
I already have selective backups to Backblaze with rclone.

The point is that home users can have good reasons for relying on redundancy.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by tracker1 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:06PM (#25362859)
That said, it reduces risk of loss when an actual full backup solution is impractical... I have about 10TB of media on my current 12tb (4x4 raid5) nas box. My next plan is a 6-drive raid z2 with 8-12tb drives early next year. I can't justify doubling the cost or more to ensure it's all backed up. The important bits (to me) are in various redundant places... that doesn't mean I want to lose it and the parity options allow for some safety without too much lose of storage space.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by hedora on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:08AM (#25360096)
I backup my raid array to the cloud using hyperbackup, but any incremental backup solution would work. It’s ~$60/TB/year:

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html

I only have a few TB, but the setup cost almost $1000 (it is less than half full), and it will take longer than I expect the hardware to last to spend $1000 on backups.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by KingMachiavelli on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:31PM (#25362009)
If you only need backups in case of whole drive failure, AWS S3 glacier is cheaper at $0.004/GB/month.

But it's still $4/month/TB or $48/TB-Year. Assuming a two 10TB drives are $300 each (actually can get them for less than $200) and last 5 years or warranty expires. ($300*2 drives /5 years / 10 TB = $12/TB-Year). So AWS glacier is still ~4x the cost of buying physical drives with RAID 1 and keeping them at a friends house.

Honestly if there is any cloud storage that trades resiliency for price that would be awesome. As long as the cloud storage can tell me if any of the storage has been corrupted/lost, I'd except a 10% yearly failure rate. If my home raid is 95% and the cloud is 90% then I have an effective yearly data loss of only 0.5%.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by res0nat0r on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:50PM (#25362493)
Deep Archive is my fav backup solution to just store a lot of data cheaply as there isn't really anything better, just the AWS egress charge is really the only thing they are keeping at a high price and for sure is for lock-in. .09c/GB is still too high to restore TB's of data if you need a full NAS rebuild and need to re-download everything.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by denkmoon on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:01PM (#25368064)
How can there be any sensible way other than having a complete copy of the data separate from the original copy?

It can be expensive, so perhaps just prioritise what you actually need instead of backing up LATEST.MOVIE.2020.Remux.r250

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by uRStillfree on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:33PM (#25368395)
Yeah, this.

Keep personal media metadata and download it again, maybe, but back it up?

Better still, only store what you’ll watch and delete it.

I only backup scans of truly useful legal documents, photos go to the cloud.

Everything contemporary, disposable pop culture is “backed up” online from my perspective.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by cortesoft on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:35AM (#25359586)
Isn’t the backup solution to always get two of whatever you build? A primary raid backed up to a second pool?
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by hedora on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:13AM (#25360152)
Typically three. Two local, one remote. Consider not RAID protecting the local backup.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by Cyph0n on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:41AM (#25359682)
Not everyone has that kind of cash lying around, especially if the pool is large and the data is not critical.
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by dspillett on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:35PM (#25362123)
You need to do more than just keep a backup of current state, if you want to deal with problems other than complete failure/destruction of the primary. What about accidental deletion and incorrect editing (done too long ago for "undo" to work)?
Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by xoa on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:14PM (#25364096)
>What about accidental deletion and incorrect editing (done too long ago for "undo" to work)?

Eh? We're talking ZFS here. Built-in atomic low cost snapshots are part of the core feature set. If we're talking using a pool and backing up another pool it's a reasonable baseline assumption that one would be using either their own or one of the many mature scripts to have regular automatic snapshots and retention schedule. Ie., once every 10 min for a day, once an hour for a week or two, once a week for a year, and monthly thereafter (or whatever fits your use case), along with preservation of any manual custom snapshots. I mean, it's right there, for free.

Re:ZFS: Use mirror vdevs, not RAIDZ by dspillett on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:01AM (#25456136)
Fair point, but the comment I replied to did not mention configuring anything like that, and while it is all there for the taking it isn't automatically configured.