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Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by eloff on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:23AM (#25332344)
Unless Apple intends to get into the server business, I think the market at the top is very small.

They really only have to be competitive with the lower core consumer chips to accomplish their goal.

I think they should try for the performance crown though and the server business. There's a lot of money in that. In servers power consumption is an important consideration and they have an advantage there as well. ARM based architectures are also a lot more relaxed in that they don't have to present a nearly sequentially consistent view of cache and memory between multiple cores like x86. That may give them an edge scaling the core count. It's horrible to program for if you are coding lock free algorithms, but almost nobody does that and fewer should.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by notriddle on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:17AM (#25333550)
No, they shouldn't.

There's a reason Apple don't make Time Capsules any more. Servers are usually commodities, and Apple don't make commodities if they can reasonably avoid it (anything they make that's even close to a commodity still, at least, can be turned into a fashion accessory, like the aluminum keyboards and stuff). Commodity suppliers get put into bidding wars, and operate on razor-thin margins.

Apple have basically opened the market for ARM servers by producing a workstation to go with them. Amazon is probably feeling pretty vindicated for Gravitron right now. Everybody else will catch up with them over the next five years or so, I'm sure.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by dingaling on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:00PM (#25334015)
And to invert that point, data center operators only buy commodities[1]. They won't be interested in a single-source option with invariable pricing.

[1] Excepting those big enough to build their own

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by dangus on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:14PM (#25338396)
Change selling chips and servers to selling cloud computing.

I don’t think Apple will do it considering how far behind they are, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they start an AWS competitor using Apple Silicon.

Cloud computing is never 100% a commodity because there’s always business logic to sell.

Sure, S3 and EC2 are by this point commodities, but cloud products like Babelfish for Aurora PostgreSQL are not.

Businesses are plenty interested in single source cloud computing, there are tons of shops that basically can’t leave AWS without a monumental effort.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by eloff on Monday December 07, 2020 @01:02PM (#25334881)
Intel's server market is their most profitable segment.

It's a high margin business, the opposite of a commodity.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by AnthonyMouse on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:20PM (#25336869)
Intel's server market is full of customers with proprietary x86_64 binaries that can't easily be ported to other architectures, and until recently had very little competition in that market because AMD's pre-Zen server processors were uncompetitive.

Throwing in to that market with an ARM processor would limit you to portable software, putting you into competition with not only Intel and AMD but also Amazon and potentially Qualcomm and others. Which could actually hurt Apple if it gives ARM competitors a wider market for their processors and therefore more resources to spend on development that carries down to PCs and mobiles.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by valuearb on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:03PM (#25336567)
It was.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:05PM (#25334074)
>Apple don't make commodities

ARM chips are also commodities nowadays. I lost count of how many companies make them. Yet Apple chose to make their own.

Charging circuitry chips are also commodities and Apple bought the division of Dialog semiconductors making such chips to have in house knowledge.

Now Apple bought the modem division of Intel so we're gonna see GSM modems from them in the future.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by mschuster91 on Monday December 07, 2020 @02:02PM (#25335766)
> Now Apple bought the modem division of Intel so we're gonna see GSM modems from them in the future.

Not in any non-Apple device, that is. The rest of the world will be stuck with with Qualcomm, Broadcom and some crap from Mediatek.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by smcgaw on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:23PM (#25334315)
Apple doesn't sell commodities might be more accurate.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by naravara on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:17PM (#25337670)
> There's a reason Apple don't make Time Capsules any more. Servers are usually commodities, and Apple don't make commodities if they can reasonably avoid it (anything they make that's even close to a commodity still, at least, can be turned into a fashion accessory, like the aluminum keyboards and stuff).

Also, they can sell you a monthly subscription to iCloud storage instead. I'd rather be in that line of business than selling an overpriced and under-featured NAS. Anyone who cares that much is probably technically savvy enough to prefer a proper NAS anyway.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by toast0 on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:10AM (#25333482)
> Unless Apple intends to get into the server business, I think the market at the top is very small.

Their OS is pretty unsuitable for server tasks[1], and they've abandoned most of their server tools, so I think they don't care about that market anymore.

[1] No synflood mitigations, easy to panic by spawning threads that sleep.

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by eloff on Monday December 07, 2020 @01:03PM (#25334903)
I don't think their OS would be popular in the server space. But you could run Linux on their chips - if they decided to support that.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by vbezhenar on Monday December 07, 2020 @01:16PM (#25335090)
They can use Linux like they do now.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by xhkkffbf on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:34AM (#25333726)
The OS is not exactly unstable but increasingly worthless for my desktop work. The spinning beachball of death sucks.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by spacedcowboy on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:47AM (#25333858)
Apple have a vested interest in getting into the server business. They have a lot of machines in datacenters. Some in the US, some in China, some dotted at other datacenters they own around the world.

Replacing the Intel machines with something that runs (a) faster and (b) with less power, is a double-win. I'd frankly be amazed if there wasn't a N-core or N-module server setup somewhere within the spaceship undergoing tests. And it's not that far from there to selling a Mac-based server. Which they've done before, after all...

Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by oblio on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:45PM (#25337247)
If they do, it will be SMB/media company servers. No self respecting hosting provider or enterprise will use Apple servers.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by EricE on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:26PM (#25336965)
Or just a rack mounted Mx Mac Pro.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by em500 on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:35AM (#25332462)
Their current 28-core Mac Pro (which even has a rack version) is probably not a volume business either, that doesn't stop them from making them. It's probably much cheaper to go for the performance crown with their own CPU now than with Intel/AMD in the past. See it as Apples Bugatti Veyron/Chiron :)
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by eloff on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:10AM (#25332818)
They didn't have to make a special chip for it though, it can be economical to offer a small volume product made of off the shelf components. It's a losing venture to do it with custom designed chips - that's extremely expensive and I doubt the market is large enough to justify it. Unless they intend to get into servers. I'm very curious to see what they do.
Re:Apple Preps Next Mac Chips with Aim to Outclass Highest-E... by _ph_ on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:16PM (#25334213)
They have to make a server-class chip if they want to have something like the Mac Pro on ARM too. To actually go into the server business they might have to add a bit more I/O capability like Epyc vs. Threadripper, but the basic cpu should be more than up to it, if it has 32 performance cores or more. Even just a rack-mounted M1 would be interesting for many server applications and anything above more so.