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Re:Billionaires Build by chillwaves on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:31PM (#25307438)
Neither category should exist. The fact billionaires exist is an indictment against our system and how we allocate resources.
Re:Billionaires Build by Aunche on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:19PM (#25308992)
I think most people agree that a book author deserves a couple dollars every time someone purchases their media. JK Rowling's stories have been read and watched billions of times? Who deserves to control that capital more than JK Rowling herself?
Re:Billionaires Build by thn-gap on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:36PM (#25309782)
Those people in the production chain of her media, who suffer due to their poor economical status.

Or at least I'd consider it to have more priority, than J.K Rowling amassing few more millions herself.

I wouldn't have such big issue with Billionaires, if there weren't so much suffering from the exploited population.

Re:Billionaires Build by foxrob92 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:32AM (#25312063)
While Rowling provided the creative input to her stories, they were:

- Edited by other people - Printed by other people - (Films were) directed by other people - Characters in the films were played by other people - Distributed by other people

If there was no J.K. Rowling, we (admittedly) wouldn't have the stories. But the same is true of all of the other moving parts in the media business.

No-one is self-made.

[dead]
Re:Billionaires Build by Aunche on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:08PM (#25311335)
I'm defending her ownership of capital, not her spending. I may disagree with my government spending money bombing Muslims that disagree with it, but I recognize it's right to collect trillions of dollars in taxes.
Re:Billionaires Build by alisonkisk on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:11PM (#25310125)
Others would say she's funding groups to protect girls and women against abuse.
Re:Billionaires Build by Frondo on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:29PM (#25309141)
Let her control it til the end of the tax year, and then let her help fund the system that made her fabulously wealthy.
Re:Billionaires Build by Aunche on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:40PM (#25309263)
The government is made up of people who make mistakes even if they have the best of intentions. It doesn't make sense for a bureaucrat to have more control of the wealth than the person who created that wealth purely from her imagination.
Re:Billionaires Build by sjm on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:08PM (#25309548)
A government that makes some "mistakes" is far better than the alternative. Just ask the town a bunch of libertarians took over. [0]

0: https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-int...

Re:Billionaires Build by Aunche on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:21PM (#25309646)
I'm saying that it's reasonable to expect a significant fraction of the wealth that you created, which is true in every developed country. I'm not advocating for libertarianism.
Re:Billionaires Build by sjm on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:45PM (#25310819)
So do you really believe any single person is so "brilliant" (or whatever adjective you want to use) to have truly created or earned billions of dollars through their own brilliance alone? Do you think Jeff Bezos is 1,310,000x more deserving of his wealth than the average American household?

IMO it's not reasonable at all past a certain point to continue to amass this kind of wealth that is a by-product of a broken system driven by exploitation, a system in this stage clearly set up for the rich to get richer while those struggling remain stagnant at best.

Re:Billionaires Build by Aunche on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:17PM (#25311029)
It's not about brilliance. Technology and organization allow your impact to scale to superhuman levels. I used the JK Rowling example because it's obvious that without her, we would not have the multi-billion dollar franchise that is Harry Potter. Without Harry Potter, there is no guarantee that another franchise would have taken it's place.

It's also not a stretch to suggest that Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates have created over 100 times more value than Rowling. Their roles are more nebulous, but they certainly did something better than their competitors. Microsoft Excel alone possibly has possibly saved trillions of hours productivity.

Re:Billionaires Build by alisonkisk on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#25310144)
Who agrees that, after the first few million copies?

Under the original US Constitution, Harry Potter would be public domain by now.

Re:Billionaires Build by lotsofpulp on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:42PM (#25307625)
So what should happen to your assets when the total of their market capitalization crosses the $1B line?
Re:Billionaires Build by codyb on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:28PM (#25309706)
I also am not sure how you're supposed to tax something like stock.

If Bezos sold all of his stock in Amazon, well, for one he'd certainly be worth a lot less fairly rapidly as the stock collapsed based on his massive sale of it.

He's taxed on the sale of his stock as far as I understand it, although the capital gains tax should presumably be higher than the tax on earned wages.

It seems sensible that when you're putting hours in, you'd get taxed at a lower rate than someone whose money made them more money.

But... if Bezos has 10 million shares and they're worth 100 billion dollars, do you... take his shares away even if he's not selling them just because his assets are worth more than a billion dollars?

I think it's fair to say the current state of affairs where his employees are working at barely livable wages and getting carted away in ambulances from his warehouses is certainly untenable.

At that point the federal government needs to step in and say that these places aren't paying these workers enough to live a comfortable lifestyle and support a family.

It's too bad the extremely wealthy are also so able to pervert our systems of governance through lobbying efforts which they can afford.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#25310148)
Taxings loans against the stock would do it, I think?

You can't use the stock based wealth without asking it, unless you take out a loan with the stock as collateral.

Re:Billionaires Build by tshaddox on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:46PM (#25308546)
I don’t know, many some more of the value of those assets could go to the workers who created the value.
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:00PM (#25310912)
Who’s going to invest the capital and do the work to run a company that develops technology (eg. hiring the tens of thousands of people required to fabricate 5 nm chips and build cell phones) if there is no way to become a billionaire off of it? I figure the people who are capable of that kind of stuff would put all their efforts toward overthrowing the system instead if that’s what the rules were.
Re:Billionaires Build by wyre on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:30PM (#25311111)
I thought the reason for the advancement for science and technology was for the betterment of humankind and not dreams of becoming a billionaire.
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:57PM (#25311284)
I buy it for basic research that a few people in a lab can do, but it seems hard to coordinate the efforts of tens of thousands of people that way. You need ruthless prioritization of different initiatives and performance incentives for management and other stuff that public servants and academics aren’t that big on.
Re:Billionaires Build by tshaddox on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:02AM (#25311922)
Is there no one who would invest capital in order to earn only hundreds of millions of dollars?
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:20AM (#25312292)
What if many billions in capital are needed, and there’s risk too? It’s just not worth getting involved unless you can earn billions.
Re:Billionaires Build by riggernetard on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:03PM (#25320342)
i still fail to understand what the issue with having billions of money is. the best part is these people ignore that money is just a stand-in for power, which they absolutely fucking hate, and that if you ban billionares people will still have more power than a billionare via other mechanisms :)
Re:Billionaires Build by chillwaves on Sunday December 06, 2020 @10:13AM (#25323941)
I hope you get banned in a substantial way.
Re:Billionaires Build by atq2119 on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:40PM (#25310792)
Moving the assets above the line to a social wealth fund whose profits will be paid out equally to all residents of the country. Such funds already exist in several countries (and US states), no reason why we can't get creative about how to grow them.
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:54PM (#25307789)
In good idle games they shift the goal once you hit more boring levels.

Stealing partly from someone else I can't find a reference for:

Ownership capped at 1 billion, you get a sticker saying "I won capitalism" and all further growth and income goes to the government for social programs. You get a new ticker that estimates lives saved and people homes/fed/educated - that becomes your new boasting figure.

Not entirely serious but extreme wealth should be considered a bug. Perhaps it's true that the best system overall always results in this but it's worth considering that it might not be.

Re:Billionaires Build by somethoughts on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:01PM (#25310029)
Yes - this! Perhaps it should be "Ok yay you won, now did you win in cheat mode (by exploiting people and reasources) or real mode!"

Since Forbes is the default scoreboard perhaps when it makes its Billionaires List, instead of a basic sort ranked by on net worth, Forbes should incorporate Environmental, Social and Governance like factors similar to those starting to be used for Equity investing [1] and do a final ranking based on ESG*net worth.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bottom_line

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:17PM (#25310177)
Nah, it's an option for starting againm.in video games you get to win in the initial difficulty, but then you can start again in plus mode
Re:Billionaires Build by somethoughts on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:42PM (#25310390)
Yes - that's fair - that's the Andrew Carnegie and Alfred Nobel style of gaming. After winning first in cheat mode, play again in real mode!
Re:Billionaires Build by canofbars on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:28PM (#25308287)
Do you think billionaires would just stop and let the system collect their money? My first thought is they would just donate all ownership over the cap to family members. They could probably continue this forever before every family member gains $1B
Re:Billionaires Build by newen on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:46PM (#25308537)
Seems perfectly fine to me. Gifts are taxed in the US. If it causes resulting problems, deal with it then. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.
Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:05PM (#25308806)
How is this considered "good" in this scenario? Income is taxed anyway. So how to rerouting money away from "taxed income" to "taxed gifts" help anything?
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:38PM (#25309239)
It would mean that income is taxed twice or equivalent to it being taxed higher. Under a core assumption here that the tax revenue is used to help, this is better than it not happening.

More importantly though, it's not a precise tax plan it's intended to show the absurdity of the outcome we currently have rather than show a particular way out. That the answers are often "but there would be loopholes" rather than "having people amass much more wealth is inherently good for us all" is telling.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:21PM (#25310223)
This wealth might not be accumulated through income, and thus not taxed as income?
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:25PM (#25309097)
Perhaps missed the end of the comment there.

Edit - though, they do. They already do. Not at the same level but they do let the government take their money.

And also, how else would they increase their score on the next level?

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:21PM (#25310219)
That's still a better outcome though? The result is that wealth is distributed to more people
Re:Billionaires Build by mcintyre1994 on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:53PM (#25308637)
Couldn’t you just cap non-charitable gifts to something like $1 million lifetime per recipient in that case? I doubt that’d be particularly controversial with anyone who isn’t a multi-millionaire, unless I’m missing something.
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:45PM (#25309318)
Or cap them on the donor.
Re:Billionaires Build by jessaustin on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:47PM (#25310431)
...you get a sticker...

Consider for a moment what privileges would have to attach to this sticker, in order for the billionaires to let this through Congress. Definitely they would still want to have control of dominant cultural narratives, and they'd still want to write all the laws, and those of them who appreciate fabulous personal possessions would still appreciate those. The administration of this sticker would be quite complicated...

Re:Billionaires Build by atq2119 on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:37PM (#25310772)
You've pretty much summed up why billionaires shouldn't exist: their existence is incompatible with democracy. (I don't know how best to fix this either.)
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Saturday December 05, 2020 @02:44AM (#25312682)
It's telling that the responses to a non-serious tax plan are not on the topic "why billionaires existing is inherently good" but like this where you argue that billionaires have too much control over the democratic process for it to be implemented and a concern over the administration of a small scale sticker run.
Re:Billionaires Build by Privacy846 on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:44PM (#25308510)
> Ownership capped at 1 billion, you get a sticker saying "I won capitalism" and all further growth and income goes to the government for social programs. You get a new ticker that estimates lives saved and people homes/fed/educated - that becomes your new boasting figure.

But that would be a lie since most of that money/value was created by other people, most likely their employees.

Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:19PM (#25308991)
First off, those employees have been paid already, so I'm not sure what the relevance is. If they agreed to work for 100k/year, and forgo the risk of starting a company, why should they get more than the agreed upon price after the company does well? It may be in the companies interest to give them a bonus to keep them around, but that's a separate issue.

Second, the only way you can argue they created more value than the founder of the company is in aggregate. But they also likely made more money than the founder in aggregate. A company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring. If a CEO makes 10,000,000/year, it's probably because the company thinks that CEO is worth it (adds more value than that). So it's silly to point out that the 1000 engineers below him add more value in aggregate. Why, yes.. they also get paid way more than 10,000,000/year in aggregate.

And if the CEO/founder flat out owns the company then all this talk is irrelevant. It's theirs. They can do what they want. If they hired people to build the company for them and the people agreed, good for them. Sounds like a beneficial negotiation for both parties.

Edit: I'm not necessarily arguing for or against the existence of billionaires. That's a tough problem that I don't think I know the answer to. I'm just saying that pointing out that "employees add the real value to the company" is a dumb argument.

Re:Billionaires Build by Privacy846 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:38PM (#25379754)
What you talk about in your first paragraph is irrelevant. I am talking about the actual value the employees bring through their value, not what price they managed to negotiate for their labor on the market. If a restaurant is operated by 10 employees who manage to do all the work while the owner lives in Costa Rica, then all the value is created by the employees, even if they are only paid 10 USD an hour each.

Secondly, it’s just laughably wrong to suggest that a “company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring”. Employees are paid what they need to be paid in order to get them to work there. No more, no less. A sweatshop worker might bring much more value than the cents they are paid, and a programmer might bring much more value than their 100K salary would suggest (see e.g. no-poach agreements between Google and other big companies).

(Seriously. Cite on economist that claims that “company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring”.)

And risk is irrelevant to the question of value. If someone wins a billion dollars, should we thank them for their hard work if they donate it to charity? Maybe for the money, but it would be misleading to conflate speculation/gambling with work.

You are so fundamentally misguided that it’s just laughable.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:02PM (#25310030)
Does the employee still get that money if the company goes under? People getting pink slips says that they're taking on just as much risk as the founder. Signing that contract does not guarantee the 100k/year
Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:49PM (#25311229)
You get paid as long as you keep working, which is what the contract is. If you had to keep working whether or not the company can pay you, that would obviously be a lot riskier. But that isn’t how things work. If the company goes under you go get a new job, and sign another contract.
Re:Billionaires Build by tartoran on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:14PM (#25308946)
> So what should happen to your assets when the total of their market capitalization crosses the $1B line?

People who created enormous value in the past were rich but not filthy rich and that was not their goal in the first place. Most of them were happy enough to be paid back in respect, recognition, credit, fanfare, veneration etc..

Re:Billionaires Build by imgabe on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:24PM (#25309674)
I'm sorry, what?

What people are you referring to? I've read a fair amount about the gilded age robber barons and such. They were definitely not content to be paid back in "respect, recognition, fanfare". In fact that is more of a distraction and nuisance, and occasionally a liability or danger. The sorts of business practices used in the past to amass and keep wealth make anything today look like kiddie stuff.

Re:Billionaires Build by tartoran on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:27PM (#25341383)
Yep
Re:Billionaires Build by old-gregg on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#25310145)
> People who created enormous value in the past were rich but not filthy rich

Rockefeller's net worth was about 2% of US GDP. IIRC, that's still a record.

Re:Billionaires Build by sumedh on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:59PM (#25310007)
> but not filthy rich

What is your definition of filthy rich?

Re:Billionaires Build by api on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:42PM (#25307630)
Who would allocate resources better?
Re:Billionaires Build by oblio on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:57PM (#25307837)
Better than not trying to reallocate them at all? Anything, really :-)

Even a crappy government, which is widely known to be one of the least efficient ways to manage anything.

What's the percentage of multi millionaires or billionaires that are involved in effective, life changing philanthropy for large swaths of people?

Re:Billionaires Build by chillwaves on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:56PM (#25307822)
The government, controlled by the people.
Re:Billionaires Build by themacguffinman on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:34PM (#25311136)
If the government or any similar bureaucracy could actually allocate resources better, we wouldn't have so many failed planned economies and not a single successful example compared to capitalist economies.
Re:Billionaires Build by jrsala on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:24PM (#25311733)
This is a false dichotomy. GP did not suggest a planned economy as a solution, and more generally a planned economy is not the only alternative to wanton capitalism where government rather has more control over resources.
Re:Billionaires Build by ajmadesc on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:33PM (#25309759)
The problem is finding a way to implement a government controlled by the people. I respect the optimism though
Re:Billionaires Build by chillwaves on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:25PM (#25311071)
It's a lot more difficult to do with billionaires around, especially the ones appointed to cabinet level positions in government.
Re:Billionaires Build by ajmadesc on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:08PM (#25309546)
Well, maybe you could have an extremely large group of people independently allocate that capital to firms who they believe could provide them with utility immediately, rather than having it inflate the cost of capital?
Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:57PM (#25309992)
What do you mean by better?
Re:Billionaires Build by claudeganon on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:38PM (#25308433)
The Chinese government is a horrible, authoritarian nightmare, but still somehow does better at managing the country's resources than the American ruling class. The pandemic, now over in China, while our nurses tape garbage bags to themselves as thousands die daily, has proven that definitively.
Re:Billionaires Build by sumedh on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:06PM (#25310078)
Australia and NZ are dont have an authoritarian govt but still managed to get the pandemic under control.
Re:Billionaires Build by riggernetard on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:04PM (#25320347)
> Australia and NZ are dont have an authoritarian govt

a lot of people would disagree here, see the (correct, based) coup of the aus govt over the judiciary allowing them to at will deport migrants, or the controls on going outside in australia

Re:Billionaires Build by claudeganon on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:18PM (#25310189)
Yes? The U.S. did worse than them too.
Re:Billionaires Build by sumedh on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:23PM (#25310239)
So you dont need an authoritarian govt to bring it under control. You just need a govt and a population who will listen to scientists and experts.
Re:Billionaires Build by api on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:44PM (#25308514)
The pandemic happened to hit while we had a particularly idiotic populist demagogue in the White House, but even if we'd had someone more competent I still agree that China would have done better. Assuming you believe their numbers, China seems to be doing better than most of the world.

I chalk up China's governmental competence to the number of scientists and engineers involved in their government. It may be authoritarian and a bit of a nightmare, but unlike the majority of other governments in the world you have a few decision makers in there who have some clue how the world actually works. Most other government are run by lawyers, career bureaucrats, delusional ideologues, or leaders who inherited their position either officially via some line of succession or de-facto via institutional nepotism.

There are some of all those categories in China's government, but there are also apparently enough people who actually know how to do things in the real world.

Re:Billionaires Build by tartoran on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:16PM (#25308960)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25304738

This might be a relevant story I read today on China.

Re:Billionaires Build by cwkoss on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:09PM (#25310106)
Plenty of our democratic leaders have made idiotic self-serving decisions concerning the pandemic too (I'm looking at you, Nancy Pelosi)
Re:Billionaires Build by jessaustin on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:50PM (#25310447)
I don't think she's ever been a scientist or engineer?
Re:Billionaires Build by claudeganon on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:50PM (#25308593)
Right, I was just responding to the question, whose posing is often used to suggest that the US is the best of all possible resource allocation worlds. I don't want to live under a regime like the CCP, but we did just run this experiment and the U.S. system of resource allocation failed miserably.
Re:Billionaires Build by api on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:01PM (#25308747)
I don't think it's the best of all possible worlds, but it is better than some.

Only a small percentage of billionaires do incredibly valuable things, but those who do are doing things that I can't imagine the US government of today ever doing. The US government would be having meetings to schedule the meeting to discuss the meeting schedule, or fighting over culture war issues.

Re:Billionaires Build by ajmadesc on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:41PM (#25309818)
You don't think that the culture war issues are manufactured to distract the masses from endless war, tax cuts, corporate subsidies, etc?

I think that the government has been sabotaged. Intentionally impairing it's functions to justify the critiques of functionally.

"I want to make the government small enough to drown in a tub"

"Government doesn't work, elect me and I'll prove it"(that one's a joke but conveys the point)

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:56PM (#25309980)
Theres not that many billionaires, so I'm not sure how relevant percentages of billionaires is
Re:Billionaires Build by jacobush on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:05PM (#25308814)
We need to remember they allocate resources horribly in other places though. Genocide is going there, forced abortion and sterilisation of entire populations.
Re:Billionaires Build by RestlessMind on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:51PM (#25309912)
Not really. If someone designs a COVID vaccine tomorrow and decide to charge just 1$ for every person receiving that, I would not begrudge them becoming a billionaire when a billion people benefit from that vaccine. That is some real value created and delivered to the society.
Re:Billionaires Build by jessaustin on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:25PM (#25311066)
I think probably there will be some costs associated with creating and manufacturing this vaccine...