News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Billionaires Build by lotsofpulp on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:42PM (#25307625)
So what should happen to your assets when the total of their market capitalization crosses the $1B line?
Re:Billionaires Build by codyb on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:28PM (#25309706)
I also am not sure how you're supposed to tax something like stock.

If Bezos sold all of his stock in Amazon, well, for one he'd certainly be worth a lot less fairly rapidly as the stock collapsed based on his massive sale of it.

He's taxed on the sale of his stock as far as I understand it, although the capital gains tax should presumably be higher than the tax on earned wages.

It seems sensible that when you're putting hours in, you'd get taxed at a lower rate than someone whose money made them more money.

But... if Bezos has 10 million shares and they're worth 100 billion dollars, do you... take his shares away even if he's not selling them just because his assets are worth more than a billion dollars?

I think it's fair to say the current state of affairs where his employees are working at barely livable wages and getting carted away in ambulances from his warehouses is certainly untenable.

At that point the federal government needs to step in and say that these places aren't paying these workers enough to live a comfortable lifestyle and support a family.

It's too bad the extremely wealthy are also so able to pervert our systems of governance through lobbying efforts which they can afford.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#25310148)
Taxings loans against the stock would do it, I think?

You can't use the stock based wealth without asking it, unless you take out a loan with the stock as collateral.

Re:Billionaires Build by tshaddox on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:46PM (#25308546)
I don’t know, many some more of the value of those assets could go to the workers who created the value.
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:00PM (#25310912)
Who’s going to invest the capital and do the work to run a company that develops technology (eg. hiring the tens of thousands of people required to fabricate 5 nm chips and build cell phones) if there is no way to become a billionaire off of it? I figure the people who are capable of that kind of stuff would put all their efforts toward overthrowing the system instead if that’s what the rules were.
Re:Billionaires Build by wyre on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:30PM (#25311111)
I thought the reason for the advancement for science and technology was for the betterment of humankind and not dreams of becoming a billionaire.
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:57PM (#25311284)
I buy it for basic research that a few people in a lab can do, but it seems hard to coordinate the efforts of tens of thousands of people that way. You need ruthless prioritization of different initiatives and performance incentives for management and other stuff that public servants and academics aren’t that big on.
Re:Billionaires Build by tshaddox on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:02AM (#25311922)
Is there no one who would invest capital in order to earn only hundreds of millions of dollars?
Re:Billionaires Build by jskajakzkjx on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:20AM (#25312292)
What if many billions in capital are needed, and there’s risk too? It’s just not worth getting involved unless you can earn billions.
Re:Billionaires Build by riggernetard on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:03PM (#25320342)
i still fail to understand what the issue with having billions of money is. the best part is these people ignore that money is just a stand-in for power, which they absolutely fucking hate, and that if you ban billionares people will still have more power than a billionare via other mechanisms :)
Re:Billionaires Build by chillwaves on Sunday December 06, 2020 @10:13AM (#25323941)
I hope you get banned in a substantial way.
Re:Billionaires Build by atq2119 on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:40PM (#25310792)
Moving the assets above the line to a social wealth fund whose profits will be paid out equally to all residents of the country. Such funds already exist in several countries (and US states), no reason why we can't get creative about how to grow them.
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:54PM (#25307789)
In good idle games they shift the goal once you hit more boring levels.

Stealing partly from someone else I can't find a reference for:

Ownership capped at 1 billion, you get a sticker saying "I won capitalism" and all further growth and income goes to the government for social programs. You get a new ticker that estimates lives saved and people homes/fed/educated - that becomes your new boasting figure.

Not entirely serious but extreme wealth should be considered a bug. Perhaps it's true that the best system overall always results in this but it's worth considering that it might not be.

Re:Billionaires Build by somethoughts on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:01PM (#25310029)
Yes - this! Perhaps it should be "Ok yay you won, now did you win in cheat mode (by exploiting people and reasources) or real mode!"

Since Forbes is the default scoreboard perhaps when it makes its Billionaires List, instead of a basic sort ranked by on net worth, Forbes should incorporate Environmental, Social and Governance like factors similar to those starting to be used for Equity investing [1] and do a final ranking based on ESG*net worth.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bottom_line

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:17PM (#25310177)
Nah, it's an option for starting againm.in video games you get to win in the initial difficulty, but then you can start again in plus mode
Re:Billionaires Build by somethoughts on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:42PM (#25310390)
Yes - that's fair - that's the Andrew Carnegie and Alfred Nobel style of gaming. After winning first in cheat mode, play again in real mode!
Re:Billionaires Build by canofbars on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:28PM (#25308287)
Do you think billionaires would just stop and let the system collect their money? My first thought is they would just donate all ownership over the cap to family members. They could probably continue this forever before every family member gains $1B
Re:Billionaires Build by newen on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:46PM (#25308537)
Seems perfectly fine to me. Gifts are taxed in the US. If it causes resulting problems, deal with it then. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.
Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:05PM (#25308806)
How is this considered "good" in this scenario? Income is taxed anyway. So how to rerouting money away from "taxed income" to "taxed gifts" help anything?
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:38PM (#25309239)
It would mean that income is taxed twice or equivalent to it being taxed higher. Under a core assumption here that the tax revenue is used to help, this is better than it not happening.

More importantly though, it's not a precise tax plan it's intended to show the absurdity of the outcome we currently have rather than show a particular way out. That the answers are often "but there would be loopholes" rather than "having people amass much more wealth is inherently good for us all" is telling.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:21PM (#25310223)
This wealth might not be accumulated through income, and thus not taxed as income?
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:25PM (#25309097)
Perhaps missed the end of the comment there.

Edit - though, they do. They already do. Not at the same level but they do let the government take their money.

And also, how else would they increase their score on the next level?

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:21PM (#25310219)
That's still a better outcome though? The result is that wealth is distributed to more people
Re:Billionaires Build by mcintyre1994 on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:53PM (#25308637)
Couldn’t you just cap non-charitable gifts to something like $1 million lifetime per recipient in that case? I doubt that’d be particularly controversial with anyone who isn’t a multi-millionaire, unless I’m missing something.
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:45PM (#25309318)
Or cap them on the donor.
Re:Billionaires Build by jessaustin on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:47PM (#25310431)
...you get a sticker...

Consider for a moment what privileges would have to attach to this sticker, in order for the billionaires to let this through Congress. Definitely they would still want to have control of dominant cultural narratives, and they'd still want to write all the laws, and those of them who appreciate fabulous personal possessions would still appreciate those. The administration of this sticker would be quite complicated...

Re:Billionaires Build by atq2119 on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:37PM (#25310772)
You've pretty much summed up why billionaires shouldn't exist: their existence is incompatible with democracy. (I don't know how best to fix this either.)
Re:Billionaires Build by IanCal on Saturday December 05, 2020 @02:44AM (#25312682)
It's telling that the responses to a non-serious tax plan are not on the topic "why billionaires existing is inherently good" but like this where you argue that billionaires have too much control over the democratic process for it to be implemented and a concern over the administration of a small scale sticker run.
Re:Billionaires Build by Privacy846 on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:44PM (#25308510)
> Ownership capped at 1 billion, you get a sticker saying "I won capitalism" and all further growth and income goes to the government for social programs. You get a new ticker that estimates lives saved and people homes/fed/educated - that becomes your new boasting figure.

But that would be a lie since most of that money/value was created by other people, most likely their employees.

Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:19PM (#25308991)
First off, those employees have been paid already, so I'm not sure what the relevance is. If they agreed to work for 100k/year, and forgo the risk of starting a company, why should they get more than the agreed upon price after the company does well? It may be in the companies interest to give them a bonus to keep them around, but that's a separate issue.

Second, the only way you can argue they created more value than the founder of the company is in aggregate. But they also likely made more money than the founder in aggregate. A company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring. If a CEO makes 10,000,000/year, it's probably because the company thinks that CEO is worth it (adds more value than that). So it's silly to point out that the 1000 engineers below him add more value in aggregate. Why, yes.. they also get paid way more than 10,000,000/year in aggregate.

And if the CEO/founder flat out owns the company then all this talk is irrelevant. It's theirs. They can do what they want. If they hired people to build the company for them and the people agreed, good for them. Sounds like a beneficial negotiation for both parties.

Edit: I'm not necessarily arguing for or against the existence of billionaires. That's a tough problem that I don't think I know the answer to. I'm just saying that pointing out that "employees add the real value to the company" is a dumb argument.

Re:Billionaires Build by Privacy846 on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:38PM (#25379754)
What you talk about in your first paragraph is irrelevant. I am talking about the actual value the employees bring through their value, not what price they managed to negotiate for their labor on the market. If a restaurant is operated by 10 employees who manage to do all the work while the owner lives in Costa Rica, then all the value is created by the employees, even if they are only paid 10 USD an hour each.

Secondly, it’s just laughably wrong to suggest that a “company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring”. Employees are paid what they need to be paid in order to get them to work there. No more, no less. A sweatshop worker might bring much more value than the cents they are paid, and a programmer might bring much more value than their 100K salary would suggest (see e.g. no-poach agreements between Google and other big companies).

(Seriously. Cite on economist that claims that “company tries to pay employees based on the value they bring”.)

And risk is irrelevant to the question of value. If someone wins a billion dollars, should we thank them for their hard work if they donate it to charity? Maybe for the money, but it would be misleading to conflate speculation/gambling with work.

You are so fundamentally misguided that it’s just laughable.

Re:Billionaires Build by 8note on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:02PM (#25310030)
Does the employee still get that money if the company goes under? People getting pink slips says that they're taking on just as much risk as the founder. Signing that contract does not guarantee the 100k/year
Re:Billionaires Build by buzzerbetrayed on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:49PM (#25311229)
You get paid as long as you keep working, which is what the contract is. If you had to keep working whether or not the company can pay you, that would obviously be a lot riskier. But that isn’t how things work. If the company goes under you go get a new job, and sign another contract.
Re:Billionaires Build by tartoran on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:14PM (#25308946)
> So what should happen to your assets when the total of their market capitalization crosses the $1B line?

People who created enormous value in the past were rich but not filthy rich and that was not their goal in the first place. Most of them were happy enough to be paid back in respect, recognition, credit, fanfare, veneration etc..

Re:Billionaires Build by imgabe on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:24PM (#25309674)
I'm sorry, what?

What people are you referring to? I've read a fair amount about the gilded age robber barons and such. They were definitely not content to be paid back in "respect, recognition, fanfare". In fact that is more of a distraction and nuisance, and occasionally a liability or danger. The sorts of business practices used in the past to amass and keep wealth make anything today look like kiddie stuff.

Re:Billionaires Build by tartoran on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:27PM (#25341383)
Yep
Re:Billionaires Build by old-gregg on Friday December 04, 2020 @07:13PM (#25310145)
> People who created enormous value in the past were rich but not filthy rich

Rockefeller's net worth was about 2% of US GDP. IIRC, that's still a record.

Re:Billionaires Build by sumedh on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:59PM (#25310007)
> but not filthy rich

What is your definition of filthy rich?