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Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by vorpalhex on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:03PM (#25279237)
That headline does not match the article contents. That is definitely the headline from the article, but it simply repeats the claim and doesn't even link to the complaint or provide ANY details.

> Spiers was fired after she created a pop-up for Google employees visiting the IRI Consultants website.

Didn't she inject code into an unrelated internal extension? That sounds like a legit security issue no matter how just her cause. Like it's awesome you're for unionization, but that doesn't mean you get to roll code across the org - what if it had been a bitcoin mining script?

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by anonacct38 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:28PM (#25279578)
> Didn't she inject code into an unrelated internal extension?

Depending on your definition of code, that's probably not the case. She added an entry to a config file that contained a mapping of urls to messages. Such as:

   dropbox.com/upload -> Friendly reminder: please don't upload internal documents to dropbox
Also, Google generally trusts engineers and it's not that unusual to have an engineer writing and deploying code. So essentially it was her job to work on and deploy this extension. I believe that had the message been an April fools day joke she wouldn't have been fired.

So in my opinion arguments that others have made (not you) that: "this was a unauthorized code change therefore obviously she should be fired on security grounds and charged with violating the CFAA too, it doesn't matter what the message was" don't really hold water. There's also an argument that she used some sort of "emergency" deployment mechanism, but that doesn't really hold water either. Honestly it's not that unusual to see people deploy some package when they need it rather than wait for a scheduled job to deploy it.

I think the grey area she was operating in boils down to: She had a platform to distribute certain types of messages internally and she put a message in there that probably wasn't the normal type of message distributed. If I were her manager I probably would have taken some action but it wouldn't have been firing.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by jefftk on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:02PM (#25280028)
> There's also an argument that she used some sort of "emergency" deployment mechanism, but that doesn't really hold water either. Honestly it's not that unusual to see people deploy some package when they need it rather than wait for a scheduled job to deploy it.

I disagree. The emergency process was highly unusual, in that it had never been done before for this extension, and was very rarely done in general. Triggering a deploy is normal, triggering a deploy that goes immediately to 100% is not.

> essentially it was her job to work on and deploy this extension

The extension wasn't something she had previously worked on.

> I believe that had the message been an April fools day joke she wouldn't have been fired.

I agree, and don't think she should have been fired for this either.

(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by nashashmi on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @05:09PM (#25282377)
You should read about the conspiracy to kill ie6.

The magical access to add stuff and just have fun was what made google a fun place to work at.

In this case adding stuff for your own corporate employees didn’t hurt the company’s customers and users. It shouldn’t have resulted in a termination. Had the person put a hate message they would have been terminated or penalized for hate but not for adding insecure code.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by username90 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @06:28PM (#25283230)
Google is mostly run by sticklers for the rules and has been for a long time (just ask Googlers about their code review process...). In practice most of the time individuals overlook transgressions, but if there is a formal complaint they don't. In this case the manager who hired the anti union org certainly got noticed about this since the notice popped up on their site, I'm pretty sure that person filed a formal complaint. And as Googles employee handbook says that doing things like this will get you fired she got fired, even though it was pretty innocent.

Similarly if someone made anti union messages pop up when you visit union sites I am 100% sure they would get fired as well, for the same reasons. You can talk about almost anything internally, (People like Damore aren't uncommon at all, the outside world just got hung up on him for some reason), just take your job and company code seriously.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by renewiltord on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:33PM (#25281184)
Got to be honest. If the security team is all like "Install this extension. It'll help you with security" and then it's gonna pop up all sorts of crap, I'm going to uninstall your shitty extension and after that I'm going to treat any software from this so-called 'security' team as some Bonzibuddy crap.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by ipsum2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:13AM (#25286730)
Google or other tech companies don't allow you disable security extensions, otherwise that would defeat the purpose. It's installed by default.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by renewiltord on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:42AM (#25286891)
Right but they also know how I feel about them so they know that I'll ignore all their messages after they've Bonzibuddied me for their pet crap. Then they'll know they've desecuritified that piece of their strategy. It will be ignored by all.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by black_puppydog on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @04:32PM (#25281932)
> Bonzibuddy crap

funny name to give to something on the grounds of an engineer in the team pushing for unionization

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by renewiltord on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @05:11PM (#25282395)
It isn't about the topic. Like if you tell me it's going to give me computer security tips and instead it's advocating for peace in the middle east I genuinely don't give a fuck. It's bonzibuddy crap. It's getting blacklisted.

I'd prefer you don't get fired for doing dumb shit like that because whatever, it's not going to kill someone, but I'm not going to use that team's adware shit anymore.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by black_puppydog on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @07:26PM (#25283721)
Oh wow, I just looked up Bonzibuddy and I guess I learned something today! :D

Sorry, I misunderstood this to allude to "Bonze" a German/French derogatory translating to "fat cat".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bonze

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by renewiltord on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @07:38PM (#25283795)
Haha, well, I guess I learned a new German derogatory term so it's a win-win all around :D
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by koheripbal on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:17PM (#25281007)
The point is that she took a company communication channel and used it for personal reasons.

That's inappropriate.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by monknomo on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:25PM (#25281081)
I'm curious if you've ever looked at a company slack or corporate email system and noticed any not strictly work related purposes?
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by ioctrl on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:31PM (#25281161)
This was a tool designed to notify employees of security alerts, not a chat app. These are not the same. It feels like people are being purposefully dense at this point.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by 613style on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:23PM (#25279512)
"Injecting code," is not the way I'd describe making changes to a product that it's your job to maintain.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by Rebelgecko on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:21PM (#25284101)
(am Googler but obviously not speaking in an official capacity)

My understanding from articles I've read is that it wasn't her job to maintain the product. It was her first time interacting with that code base, and she intentionally altered the defaults of the code review tool so that the team responsible for the extension wouldn't be informed of her changes.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by annexrichmond on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @04:54PM (#25282170)
did the change have anything to do with their job? No, so it's basically injecting code.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by davidcbc on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:11PM (#25279350)
My recollection is that the extension was for notifying employees of relevant policies and laws regarding websites they were viewing. So no, it was not an unrelated extension.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by giantg2 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:26PM (#25279549)
Isn't the extension actually about the laws or policies related to using the site in question? Not necessarily about laws pertaining to things that happen outside of the use of the site, such as unionizing.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by saghm on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:55PM (#25279929)
IIRC, the website the notice was added to was specifically a the site of law firm that Google had contracted with regards to the ongoing concerns of unionization. It seems like there's a fair argument to be made that it was related to the site, although there are arguments against that as well.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by giantg2 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:05PM (#25280080)
But in that case, the notice would fall out of scope of the plugin - which is to notify Google employees of the relevant laws or company policies about the use of a site. This would be about the generic right to unionize, which wouldn't relate to that site specifically. What actions would a user be taking on that site in that capacity, especially if that firm is representing the opposition?
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by anonymousDan on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:09PM (#25280917)
She was reminding management (who are also employees) that anti-union stuff is illegal?
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by giantg2 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:34PM (#25281188)
Not all anti-union stuff is illegal. Hiring a law firm to consult on employee management and unionization would not be illegal. If anything, they should be learning the correct and legal actions that they can take based on the consultant's recommendations.

Not to mention, the comment the plugin displayed wasn't saying anything against illegal actions, but rather stating that concerted activities are protected. I don't see how that has any bearing on the use of a law firm's website.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by zeckalpha on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:02PM (#25280023)
How was it an unrelated extension?
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by JeremyBanks on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:09PM (#25279313)
If she had injected a BitCoin miner, for personal profit, that would have been an entirely different situation, wouldn't it?
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by Pfhreak on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:20PM (#25279467)
Not sure why you are being downvoted. You've (correctly) pointed out that the parent comment has constructed a strawman to punch at, rather than the actual events.

Arguments of the form, "Person did X. Imagine if they had done Y! (Where Y is some obviously unethical thing.)" are fallacious and they lead the discussion to useless dead ends. The point is that the person did do X, and NOT Y.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:23PM (#25279516)
vorpalhex is stating action X was wrong in the first place, and describing a situation Y as an example to show why action X is wrong.

I have policies at my workplace that disallow something because it's impractical to judge every single situation and then have to deal with the gray area.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by JeremyBanks on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:52PM (#25279889)
That's a fair perspective, but that's not applicable here. The punishment isn't because of how much she violated the policies, it's to send a message.

At Google, someone once disruptively modified the root permissions for the entire company-wide monorepo to show off that the permissions scheme was fallible. They were left off with a verbal warning, even though on paper they massively abused their position, and could have made the point without actually doing it.

The engineer in the OP took a much smaller action, that was closer to the scope of her actual duties, but was punished more severely.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by vorpalhex on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:15PM (#25280212)
> That's a fair perspective, but that's not applicable here.

It's exactly applicable. If you violate say, finance reporting laws (KYC) then you've violated finance reporting laws. If you've added unauthorized code to an internal tool, well, you've added unauthorized code to an internal tool.

And had it been part of a security disclosure, well, that might be different (did they try other disclosure avenues?), but pushing a political viewpoint isn't. Imagine instead if the employee had added the message "Trump 2020" - how would you feel about that?

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by buzzerbetrayed on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:26PM (#25279541)
But X is also unethical. Not sure why you're seemingly ignoring that.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by Pfhreak on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:02PM (#25280036)
I'm not. I'm explicitly saying you should discuss X. Adding Y just muddies the discussion.
Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by manfredo on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @01:49PM (#25279864)
Abusing your position as a developer and turning your software into a political soapbox is not much better. People are trying to spin this as some sort of union busting move. I don't see it, this behavior is unacceptable regardless of what message is being spread.

Would it have been fine if she added a message to say "Affirmative Action is racist" when people browsed information about Proposition 16 on the 2020 California ballot? Sure, she definitely has the right to spread that message on her own time. But adding this message is definitely breaching expectations of professionalism, and abusing her developer role to spread a personal political message. And given that Google/Alphabet is widely suspected of political bias, I it's fair to let go of employees who cannot refrain from modify software to advance their political views.

Re:Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US ... by zobzu on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:42PM (#25281304)
A better way to think of it in my eyes is, employer pays you to write an app that shows cats. You start and you're like, yeah, no fuck that, and you write an app that shows dogs instead. Employer comes back to you and says "we pay you to show cats, since you don't wanna do it we'll find someone else".

Sucks but seems logical to me.

That's unrelated to the claims of spying and illegal procedures of course, that the new article claims. Very curious to see what they did that was illegal / what kind of spying they would have done. But right now its just claims.