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Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @03:54AM (#25263636)
How is this characterization helpful? Zack didn't force anyone to join their platform. They provide stuff for free to users who join by their own choice. If anything, it is the fault of the general population who don't know what's good for them. They don't care about your invisible hero's writing RFCs, not Zack.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by onion2k on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @04:06AM (#25263691)
Zack didn't force anyone to join their platform. They provide stuff for free to users who join by their own choice.

Every time Facebook buys a social media company that is pretty much what he's doing. People on WhatApp, Insta, ConnectU etc did not join Facebook and yet they still ended up on Facebook.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:28AM (#25264035)
Since you don't even need a facebook account to use Whatsapp, in what way are Whatsapp users forced to end up on Facebook?
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by onion2k on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:15AM (#25264262)
WhatsApp shares your phone number, device information, and details of your WhatsApp usage with Facebook. A WhatsApp user isn't "on Facebook" in the sense that they have automatically get a public profile, sure, but they are on Facebook in the sense that lots of information about them end up in Facebook databases.

(See "What information does WhatsApp share with the Facebook Companies?" on https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/how-we...)

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by wetpaws on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:03AM (#25264201)
You do need one on Oculus.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Double_a_92 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:43AM (#25264111)
So? What does that have to do with the free web? Those companies where not forced to acceppt Facebooks deal. Anyone is still free to start a new social network or other web service.

This has nothing to do with the web, and if anything it's a general antitrust case.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by abdullahkhalids on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:20AM (#25263992)
Blaming agents, that are making locally optimal decisions due to the incentives present in the game, for the system being stuck in a suboptimal Nash equilibrium is a very boring critique. Almost, as boring as asking why people get stuck in traffic, when effectively there is only one highway in the region connecting two important points.

In this particular case, the incentives are as follows. Initially, facebook set up the game so that the condition of every agent, as well as the global equilibrium improved if people used facebook. Later on, facebook changed things around, so that the global equilibrium became suboptimal.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by socialentity on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:53AM (#25264158)
Facebook did not "set up the game". Everybody is playing the same game. Facebook did not have special powers to change the rules.

They built an especially attractive service (judging by user numbers). Everybody else is free to build services in whatever way they fancy.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by JohnBooty on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:26AM (#25264567)

    Facebook did not have special powers to change the 
    rules. They built an especially attractive service
    (judging by user numbers)
That is why they initially rose to dominance. They provided a faster and more focused version of what Myspace had become. More attractive, indeed.

They maintain dominance primarily through the power of network effect. You are free to switch away from Facebook, but doing so is useless unless a significant portion of your network switches as well.

FB's end user experience is still good (I'm talking strictly about their engineering and UX here, not their business practices and other board-level decisions) and they have expanded it by adding things like their marketplace. If that experience ever got bad enough I'm sure people would start itching to switch.

But as things are, a competitor would not merely need to be as good or even 50% or 100% better. More like 500% or 1000% better if they wanted to overcome the momentum of FB's network effect.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:27AM (#25264032)
> Almost, as boring as asking why people get stuck in traffic, when effectively there is only one highway in the region connecting two important points.

Another thing that's boring is false equvalences. There are tons of other "highways", ie platforms that allow for communication like facebook does. People don't choose them.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by abdullahkhalids on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:32AM (#25264054)
Network effects around facebook mean it is far more expensive for people's social lives to use those highways.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:36AM (#25264076)
If by "expensive" you mean having to make 2 more clicks for some action, or installing 5 apps instead of one - then I argue that it's not that important to people to use those other highways in the first place. That's just not a high price to pay for anyone who cares about not being on facebook. If they are not willing to pay it, it is an indication that they just don't care. It seems that tech people have a hard time to realize this: most people are fine with facebook, knowing all its evils.

And of course the other platforms, they should keep improving and bringing those number of clicks down, and polishing up the UI, etc. But I just mean that they are already up there in terms of usability, at least in the same league.

PS. Heck, people can't even be bothered to spend 5 minutes listening about and 5 clicks installing adblock/ublock... I suppose that's Zuckerberg's fault too. /s

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Veen on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:14AM (#25264258)
Expensive doesn't mean "two extra clicks". It means convincing all of your friends and family to use a new platform. Facebook's network effects impose very high switching costs.

That's one reason your "free choice" defense of Facebook is inadequate. Yes, people "choose" to use Facebook. Yes, they are techncially free to stop using it. But, when the cost is high, is the choice really free?

If an individual's social and professional life depends on a platform because that's what everyone else uses, they cannot in practice switch to another platform even if that is their preference. You might as well argue that someone from a disfunctional family gets a new family. Or that someone living in a disfunctional state emigrates. They can do these things in theory, but in practice they are not completely free to do them.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by inglor_cz on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:36AM (#25264364)
This. Lack of interoperability is what keeps people from moving to another platform.

A mandated API for interoperability would go a long way. Just like with e-mails. We expect people with Gmail addresses to be able to get in contact with someone who does not have Gmail.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by treeman79 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @09:48AM (#25265611)
Post grand kid photos else where. Grandmas will follow.

Turned off my Facebook for awhile. Losing access to photos about caused a family riot.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by ryandrake on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:05PM (#25267079)
As someone who once used facebook, maybe a decade ago, but currently does not, I can confidently say I've seen little to no social expense to not using it. My real friends and family keep me abreast of the important things that are happening offline, and I get to skip the rest that happens on Facebook, which is essentially noise, baby pictures, and toxic politics.

I think it's almost entirely FOMO that is keeping people on these horrible "social" platforms. Best decision of my life was to leave.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Veen on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @01:10PM (#25267890)
You say FOMO as if it's a trivial thing, and not a deeply influential aspect of the human psyche.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @04:10AM (#25274690)
And that's Zuckerberg's fault too, that people have it? Demonizing much?
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by kwk1 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @07:25AM (#25275720)
It seems like you're attacking a point you made for the person you're replying to instead of anything in their actual comment here.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by cordellwren on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:33AM (#25264601)
Nobody's looking for "less clicks" when choosing social media platforms. The product sold by a social media platform is its network of users. There are many alternative services out there that may be functionally equivalent or superior to the most popular platforms, but absent the powerful network externality that Facebook and the like provides, those competitors can't be counted as replacement goods at all.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by zby on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:01AM (#25266307)
This is a great quote in that first paragraph! I need to save it.

But the second paragraph looks like you blamed facebook for making locally optimal decisions and making the system stuck in a suboptimal Nash equilibrium :)

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by vincnetas on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @04:50AM (#25263859)
Yes, they didn't forced you to use facebook, but try to explain to anyone now why you have no presence on social network and people start looking strange at you. Landlord asking four your FB account, your employer asking for your linkedin or border-guard asking to show your latest posts. And yes no one forced you to use FB, but life gets more and more inconvenient if you don't use them. Hell, bought oculus when it was FB free, and try to use it without FB.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:33AM (#25264058)
In which circles is this the case? I know personally many people who don't have any "posts" in any meaningful way or quantity, and a number of ones that don't have any presence on social networks. Then there are a lot of other people who technically have presense there, but just in a way that they have an account - not in a way of using it or logging into it.

It is also strange to hear that if you have a landlord who is weird by asking for facebook account - that the assumption is that it's Mark Zuckerberg's fault? Shouldn't you blame the landlord for that?

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by krageon on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @04:42AM (#25263834)
> didn't force anyone

This is a bad-faith argument used by ethically dubious people to justify their shady business practices. Perhaps that's you, or perhaps you've spent too long listening to them. In any case, it's not an argument to take seriously and certainly not one that merits in-depth discussion.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Double_a_92 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:45AM (#25264116)
If that was really the case, than it's a thing that antitrust laws have to sort out... How does that relate to the web technology wise? Everyone is still free to offer their own services on it.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by krageon on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:52AM (#25264145)
It's not reasonable to say "I can do bad things until the law says I can't", because that makes you antisocial. Perhaps you are, or you are arguing in bad faith. In any case I don't feel like explaining to you why you need to be a good person. Nobody reading that is going to learn anything new and you won't either.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by Double_a_92 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:53AM (#25264420)
I just never understand what the solution is. How is the web less free, just because there is one huge social network that people like to use? Yeah we got a classic monopoly there, that just happens to use the internet for it's business... so legally break it up if you don't like it. I can't ethically blame companies for trying to grow wherever they can. And I especially can't see the connection to the internet as a technology.

It's like saying roads are not free, because there are only 2-3 car brands driving on it. If that's a problem, it's not about the roads.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by JohnBooty on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:33AM (#25264599)

    How is the web less free, just because 
    there is one huge social network that 
    people like to use?
It's not directly because of FB.

We are on the verge of a single company -- Google -- assuming de facto sole control of what used to be the "open web" as its last viable competitor, Mozilla, fades away.

This is possible because, generally speaking, nobody cares about the open web. Even most of us in the tech industry no longer care.

That is where Facebook comes in. We no longer care because companies like Apple and Facebook have successfully shifted us into the "app mindset" in which the open web is irrelevant.

I care deeply about the open web, but I'm a minority.

I would love to understand the downvotes on this comment.

Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by _emacsomancer_ on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @08:29AM (#25264910)
Sure, if Reagan hadn't gutted them back in the 80s.
Re:Why do I care the open web is dying? by freeflight on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @08:02AM (#25264736)
Facebook also tracks and profiles non-users [0].

And while I did join WhatsApp by my own choice, I did not chose for Facebook to buy it up to get my data that way.

[0] https://www.theregister.com/2018/04/17/facebook_admits_to_tr...