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Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by izacus on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:28PM (#25239400)
> Xcode runs FAST on the M1. Compiling the PSPDFKit PDF SDK (debug, arm64) can almost compete with the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro Apple offers to date, with 8:49 min vs 7:31 min. For comparison, my Hackintosh builds the same in less than 5 minutes.

This is telling just about how unrealistic Geekbench benchmarks, used by most reviewers, really are - they were all forecasting M1 completely humiliating everything from Intel and yet in practice it's not quite right. It's a dang impressive chip still though.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by dschu on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:40PM (#25239487)
Yeah, but the MBA is doing all that with just 10W (15W burst), while your hackintosh most likely consumes 400W.

Not really comparable though.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by ianhowson on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:50PM (#25239556)
I'm happy to pay for the electricity if I get faster builds.

My daily driver is a Hackintosh and with the CPUs pegged pulls about 70W from the wall. The two displays add another 90W.

M1 is impressively efficient but there's still a gap for fast, no-compromise workstations.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by kevindong on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:05PM (#25239650)
On a desktop, power consumption doesn't really matter.

But on a laptop, it matters a ton. Personally I prefer doing work from my couch rather than my desk; ergonomics and external monitors be damned.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by jmnicolas on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:27PM (#25240249)
I don't know how old are you but you might regret that later.

Around 40 years old is usually when you start to pay for carelessness with your body. Ask me how I know ...

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by bori5 on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:21PM (#25240655)
100%, everything’s easy in your 20s! ;)
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by jdshaffer on Saturday November 28, 2020 @08:27PM (#25242161)
Except finances. :-)
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by 1_player on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:31AM (#25243807)
Sounds like you need a better desk/chair.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by threeseed on Saturday November 28, 2020 @05:20PM (#25241034)
> M1 is impressively efficient but there's still a gap for fast, no-compromise workstations.

Apple has already said that they are releasing a workstation-class M1X/M2 next year.

The point is that the M1 is already comparable to many workstations.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by izacus on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:20PM (#25240651)
And yet everyone keeps comparing those and claiming how much faster Air is supposed to be based on a very funny benchmark.

Not sure how power use actually matters when I'm sitting and waiting for things to compile several times a day.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by sudosysgen on Sunday November 29, 2020 @01:01AM (#25243244)
Sure, but his Hackintosh isn't running a laptop chip. 15W X86 CPUs would probably compile that faster than the M1 if the difference from Intel is that small.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by postalrat on Saturday November 28, 2020 @06:52PM (#25241645)
Maybe 400W burst with a fast graphics card. Do we have actual measurements from the MBA yet?
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by djrogers on Saturday November 28, 2020 @05:14PM (#25240998)
This is one data point among many. Tons of devs have been tweeting their compile times, and in many/most cases the M1 spanks the best Intel Mac out there.

If anything, then numbers in TFA are an outlier rather than a contradiction.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by selsta on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:29PM (#25239820)
Single core vs multi core.

The top Intel MacBook has 8 cores and only beats the M1 (4 performance cores) by 1 minute.

The desktop Hackintosh most likely has way more cores, expecting the low power M1 to beat it is unrealistic.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by ianhowson on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:57PM (#25240018)
I hate the "M1 vs Intel MacBook" comparison. Every Intel MacBook back to 2016 has broken thermals. They're all running at maybe half their rated clock speed. 13" MBP is a 4GHz part running at 1.4GHz. 16" MBP is a 4.8GHz part throttled to 2.3GHz. You're comparing M1 vs. a broken design which Apple broke.

Don't congratulate Apple for failing to ship trash.

There's an argument for efficiency on a laptop, no doubt, but that's not what the parent commenter is talking about.

M1 is the highest perf-per-watt CPU today, no question. Ignoring efficiency, there are plenty of faster CPUs both for single-core and multi-core tasks. That's what "my Hackintosh did the build in 5 minutes" is showing.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by faxfax on Saturday November 28, 2020 @08:22PM (#25242132)
You're misunderstanding Intel's specs. If you want the chip to run within TDP you can only expect the base frequency across all cores, not the ridiculous turbo frequency. The best laptop chip Intel has right now is the i9-10980HK with 8 cores at a 2.4GHz base frequency and a 45W TDP. Apple's laptops are more than capable of dissipating the rated TDP and hitting the base frequencies (and often quite a bit higher), although the fans can be a bit loud. So Apple's designs are not broken, at least not by Intel's definition.

You can relax the power limits and try to clock it closer to the 5.3GHz turbo frequency. But how much power do you need? I can't find numbers specifically for the i9-10980HK, but it seems like the desktop i9-9900K needs over 160 watts [1] to hit a mere 4.7GHz across all cores, measured at the CPU package (ie. not including VRM losses). Overall system power would be in excess of 200 watts, perhaps 300 watts with a GPU. Good luck cooling that in a laptop unless it's 2 inches thick or has fans that sound like a jet engine.

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9...

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by ianhowson on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:38AM (#25245323)
You've got it backwards. Apple chooses the TDP. Intel provides the CPU to suit. Apple is choosing TDPs which are too small and then providing thermal solutions which only just meet that spec. They could provide better thermals without hurting anything else in the machine and get a higher base clock.

I assume they do this for market segmentation; see 2016 Touch Bar vs. non-Touch-Bar Pro. One fan vs. two.

The TDPs look appropriate for M1 parts. They're too small for Intel. I'm guessing that (a) Apple predicted the M1 transition sooner and (b) Apple designed ahead for Intel's roadmap (perf at reduced TDP) which never eventuated.

So, unfortunately, Apple have shipped a generation of laptops with inadequate cooling.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by read_if_gay_ on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:10PM (#25240117)
> very Intel MacBook back to 2016 has broken thermals. They're all running at maybe half their rated clock speed.

Are you saying it's an unfair comparison? The Intel Macs are operating in the same environment as the M1 Macs. It doesn't matter if the Intel parts could be faster in theory, because you're still dealing with battery and size constraints. If you want unthrottled Intel CPU in a laptop, your only options are 6 pound, 2 inch thick gaming laptops with 30 minutes of battery life. Now comparing that (or worse, a desktop) to M1 is unfair.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by mbell on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:24PM (#25240680)
> 13" MBP is a 4GHz part running at 1.4GHz. 16" MBP is a 4.8GHz part throttled to 2.3GHz.

Apple's thermal solutions could be better, but they are designed within Intel's power envelope specs. e.g. The i9-9880H in the current 16" MBP is only rated for 2.3Ghz with all cores active at its 45W TDP. The i9-9880H is a 2.3Ghz @ 45W part that can burst up to 4.8Ghz for short periods, not the other way around.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by kalleboo on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:02AM (#25244128)
Is there any reason the believe the M1 Macs don't also have broken thermals? I mean the Air doesn't even have a fan! Can't get more "broken" than that
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by andrekandre on Saturday November 28, 2020 @08:35PM (#25242207)
what could they have done to improve the thermals?

is it just a matter of making a thicker laptop?

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by trynewideas on Saturday November 28, 2020 @06:31PM (#25241489)
That's one of my biggest sources of skepticism with the M1 on the long-term — in lieu of improving thermal management, they instead reinvented _everything_ to generate less heat. Which is great! The current state of thermal management at Apple will work great at low TDPs, but they've procrastinated instead of improving. If they don't ever learn how to handle heat, this arch will still have a hard ceiling.

There's nothing in M1 that indicates that Apple learned how to improve thermal management, but lots to indicate that they'd still rather make thinner/lighter devices that compromise on repair, expansion, or sustained high-end performance — the even deeper RAM integration, offering binned parts as the lower-end "budget" option instead of a designed solution, or offering Thunderbolt 3, fewer PCIe lanes, and a lower RAM cap as being enough for a MBP or Mini.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by adamnemecek on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:38PM (#25239877)
They were comparing m1 vs the intels that are in MacBook Pros, not any intel.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by mcintyre1994 on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:04PM (#25240530)
FWIW I’ve seen iOS developers compare the M1 laptops favourably to $5000+ iMac Pro’s as well.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by izacus on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:22PM (#25240669)
Which is why it's such a horribly meaningless comparison - the marketing (and reviewers assisting it) blasted out comparisons with Intels obsolete technology, hamstrung by awful thermals. And then proclaimed it generally faster.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by czzr on Saturday November 28, 2020 @06:36PM (#25241523)
Which laptop should it be compared to?
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by macintux on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:40PM (#25239489)
It would be interesting, though, to see what those numbers would look like with a fan. Anything that runs that long on an Air is going to start throttling.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by wmf on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:16PM (#25239722)
The new Mac mini is faster but not by much. The M1 just can't use much power.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by izacus on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:21PM (#25240656)
Yeah, seeing numbers from either the Mini or the Pro might be more interesting.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by Aperocky on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:41PM (#25239492)
You can't compare M1 to a 95W TDP chip, that's not really fair.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by izacus on Saturday November 28, 2020 @04:23PM (#25240672)
And yet Apple on their event and every single reviewer out there still did it.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by Aperocky on Saturday November 28, 2020 @06:37PM (#25241536)
Well, I guess I phrased it badly. I mean - there are no fair comparisons, but being in the comparison itself already showed how crazy powerful M1 is.