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Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by throwaway4good on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:19AM (#25147334)
Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia.

European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by bobthepanda on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:50PM (#25154182)
Does it? France and the UK started the Libya conflict but had to call in the US via NATO for help.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by coldtea on Friday November 20, 2020 @03:30AM (#25158432)
"Had to call in the US" -> "the US wanted its cut as top dog, and invited itself"
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by bobthepanda on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:54AM (#25162264)
Sarkozy and Cameron publicly pushing Clinton and Obama to join in on enforcement for weeks would indicate something else, given the marked policy difference between how that was handled and Syria. Libya is not really something America has a strategic interest in.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by somesortofsystm on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:13AM (#25198561)
America wasn't going to let Libya establish the African Dinar.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by thefounder on Saturday November 21, 2020 @09:07AM (#25169803)
Exactly! If you watch Obama's past interviews he says explictely that US was disappointed by France's weakness on Libya. Not to mention that France made a big deal of its "decisive" action after the US took down the anti-air defense.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by themihai on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:56AM (#25148228)
Denmark is not France and Denmark has no guarantee that France would step in to stop a Russian invasion.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:14AM (#25148354)
Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark?
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:02AM (#25148656)
> Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark?

Denmark, no clue. But Greenland? The Arctic Circle is of increasing geopolitical importance and competition between Russia and America.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by bobthepanda on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:53PM (#25154224)
Denmark is also at the entrance of the Baltic, which would be fairly important for the Russian navy.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by virgilp on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:52AM (#25148594)
Why on Earth would Russia invade Ukraine?
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:48AM (#25149359)
Because it's on Russia's doorstep, was part of Russia for 400 years until 1991, has a large Russian minority, the Russian Black Sea fleet is based in Sevastopol, the Russia-friendly government had just been toppled in a coup backed by the US and Western European powers, and Russia didn't want another NATO member on its doorstep.

I can't see what would possibly lead to a Russian invasion of Denmark.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by virgilp on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:33AM (#25149854)
> in a coup backed by the US and Western European powers

Seriously? I'm sure the fact that Ukrainians could see contrast with next-door Poland had nothing to do with Maidan... no, it was CIA, definitely.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:48AM (#25150668)
They can also see the contrast with next-door Russia. The Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe.

The overthrow of the government was effected by armed militias, with a heavy far-right presence (e.g., pictures of Stepan Bandera, the Nazi collaborator who ethnically cleansed Poles from Western Ukraine during WWII). The US government had a hand in picking the successor government - there's even audio of the behind-the-scenes discussions. There was obviously popular support in Western Ukraine for Maidan, but there was also a lot of foreign involvement and the seizure of power itself was violent and unconstitutional.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by coldtea on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:53AM (#25150090)
For tons of historical and current reasons.

From Crimea being part of Russia for centuries, having 60% russian ethnicity population, Ukraine government being toppled by nationalists and neo-nazis with US support, etc...

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by hestefisk on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:12AM (#25148726)
Because Putin historically has boosted his popular vote by creating a foreign enemy and being the tough guy.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by virgilp on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:22AM (#25149182)
And in that context, is it really impossible that Russia would decide e.g. to annex Bornholm, if they would deem it feasible?

https://www.thelocal.dk/20150625/russia-rehearsed-takeover-o...

Remember, Ukrainians were literally "brothers"; if it happened to them, is any weak neighbor really safe?

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by themihai on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:32AM (#25148458)
Because (if) it can. You know there was a time when Russia/SU annexed Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, right?
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:51AM (#25149392)
Russia isn't the Soviet Union, and Denmark isn't in the Baltic.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by jjk166 on Friday November 20, 2020 @09:54AM (#25160968)
Why would Russia go to war with Denmark, which controls access to the Baltic Sea, control of which has been a major priority for Russian foreign policy for the past 300 years?
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by SilentBan on Thursday November 19, 2020 @07:35AM (#25148842)
In order to gain a direct way to the Atlantic ocean. They can currently reach it trough the Arctic Ocean and Black Sea -> Mediterranean Sea. But direct way will be nice. Another reason would be to insert themselves between Scandinavia and Germany.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by loopback_device on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:41PM (#25155754)
Kaliningrad Oblast is right between Scandinavia and Germany already, and Russia also has plenty of mainland coastline in the Baltic Sea.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:39AM (#25148130)
> France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia

On its homeland. France has limited excess ability to project power to e.g. Lithuania. Or Greenland.

About 10,000 troops abroad to Russia's nearly 50,000. (Though an advantage in carriers.)

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by ekabod on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:09AM (#25148319)
carriers and submarines loaded with nuclear missiles are not enough for you to project power in Greenland?
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:58AM (#25148629)
> carriers and submarines loaded with nuclear missiles are not enough for you to project power in Greenland?

No. Nuclear deterrents work against nuclear threats. But a lot of modern warfare is by proxy. Subnuclear force is what matters.

More tangibly: Russia starts constructing a base on Greenland. Does France risk nuclear exchange to challenge it? For that matter, would America? Of course not.

Sanctions, blockading the construction site and threatening to build similarly near Russian assets would be the game. Each of these, individually, is within Paris' capacity. (Except, maybe, sanctions.) But collectively, no.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by goatinaboat on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:30AM (#25147402)
France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia.

It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands.

Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by ohgodplsno on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:40AM (#25147793)
France has 222 active Leclercs, with 260 more in storage. Around 400 AMX variants too. Russia has around 300 known T90s, which are the real threat that matches a Leclerc. The rest are T80s, T72s and older, which, while absolutely dwarfing the french numbers, forgets about a tiny thing: they are absolutely _awful_ tanks compared to modern stuff. A Leclerc will happily shrug off T72s.

Additionally, Rafales are more than a strong contender to Russia's Su35. A dozen Reapers too, for good measure.

France isn't the world's fifth military power and one of the biggest seller of weapons for no reason.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by ric2b on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:07AM (#25147936)
> forgets about a tiny thing: they are absolutely _awful_ tanks compared to modern stuff.

The USSR beat the much better Nazi tanks through sheer numbers, at some point the numbers advantage overcomes the quality advantage.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by jabl on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:37AM (#25148490)
Numbers, yes, but also quality. The T-34 when it appeared shocked the Germans. While it had significant flaws the basic tank characteristics like armor, firepower and mobility were very good for the time.

The Germans thought so highly of the T-34 that they thought of cloning it, but came to the conclusion that designing a new tank to counter it was in the end a more feasible idea. This process eventually resulted in the Panther, often thought to be the best tank of the entire war. Although in practice it was beset by reliability issues, and of course it was too little too late in general by then.

Getting back to the original topic, the lesson seems that for tank vs tank combat, large numbers of good enough tanks win the day. Now, the T-72 did disastrously poorly in the Gulf war, but OTOH apparently 'domestic' USSR T-72's have better armor to begin with than the export versions used in Iraq, and further upgraded ones with more armor and modern sensors might be a much harder nut to crack.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by jacobush on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:38AM (#25200042)
Germany also had huge problems getting fuel for anything, really. They used a lot of horses for artillery. Building a huge number of tanks may not have worked out for them. When they couldn't reach Soviet oil fields, it was over.
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by lagadu on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:17AM (#25147979)
It's 2020, you don't need tank to tank when you can simply deploy tactical nuclear warheads against large numbers (strategic too but there's no need for that in this scenario).
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by cnasc on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:39AM (#25148507)
There’s no such thing as a tactical nuclear exchange which does not escalate into a strategic nuclear exchange
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by nix23 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:29AM (#25147735)
>tank on tank the way God meant it to be

Tanks are not used for that anymore, they are used as little fortresses in cities, but fighting on a open field..well you have seen what happened in the first and second iraq war.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by nl on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:41AM (#25147797)
You have this completely backwards.

Tanks are deathtraps in cities. Attackers trap them with obstacles and then attack with RPGs. See the footage on YouTube in Chechnya or Syria.

In the open battlefield as in Iraq 1 (especially) and 2 they were very effective although of course airpower is the key factor.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by nix23 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:51AM (#25147860)
Modern Tanks have a high resistance against RPG's, you can read for yourself.

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Primer-on-Urban-Op...

>In the open battlefield as in Iraq 1 (especially) and 2 they were very effective

That was artillery and aircraft's, mostly NOT Tank VS Tank.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by nl on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:18PM (#25156721)
> Modern Tanks have a high resistance against RPG's, you can read for yourself.

> https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Primer-on-Urban-Op...

To quote from this book, about regarding how badly they faired in Chechnya (as mentioned above):

> High casualties, massive collateral damage, and heavy losses in vehicles and equipment all point to the apparent folly of using tanks in the urban fight. This chapter will discuss the 1995 battle for Grozny and examine why the Russian armor did not achieve the desired results.

So... the argument is that "Russians don't know how to use tanks". I don't find this argument particularly persuasive.

It's true that up-armourmed Abrams in Fallujah proved effective against RPG-7s (as mentioned in your link). But the RPG-29 was used in Syria successfully against them, and (more often) by Hezbollah against the Merkava tanks.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/russia-rpg-threat-to-mode...

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by blackflame7000 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:47AM (#25147499)
The A-10 (or equivalent) is highly effective against tanks so it would probably come down to air superiority which the Russians would probably win easily against anyone not (china or US)
Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by goatinaboat on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:02AM (#25147589)
The A-10 (or equivalent) is highly effective against tanks

France has no A10s and S500 allows Russia to deny airspace to it anyway.

Re:NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircr... by jabl on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:38AM (#25148497)
I don't think you'd be using an S500 against an A-10 in any case..